A little different look at stereo drum overhead miking...

[RecordingMaster]

Hey guys n' gals,

Was watching a video today of a band that my band will playing with next weekend, and noticed the video is compiled of different shots from the recording sessions for this song at a local studio here in my city.

Anyhow, was just wondering what you thought about this spaced drum overhead stereo pair technique....Fast forward to exactly 0:58 for a good view and pause there. Ravenscode: "Your Words" music video - YouTube

I've seen ORTF, where the mics are facing out to the far R and L of the kit before, but apparently for ORTF to work properly, the capsules should only be 17" or so apart. These look much further than that (at least 40"?).

And as far as I've ever seen or done, for a stereo spaced pair using front-address condensers, they should be spaced equidistant from the snare's center and bass drum and be pointing straight down, not angled outward. It's almost like the way he was doing it was to mic the cymbals only (mostly) and that the snare/toms/kick would sound really weak in the overheads, meaning pretty much ALL of your drum sound would be coming from the close mics, sounding unnatural.

Although the final drum sound achieved in this tune sounds good. Unless all we're hearing is drum replacement mixed with the real overheads (cymbals in this case). Edit: Note there is also a ride and hi-hat mic.

Firstly, have you ever seen this before? And secondly, what do you guys think?

 

[Dogbreath]

I dunno.
I don't have speakers here at work but they look a bit odd. I guess if they sound good, then good nuff but that's not the spacing I would use.
I try to get my kit as a whole from my OH's. I don't see how he could get that with this set up.

??

 

[bouldersoundguy]

That's fairly normal for metal drums. The natural acoustic sound of the kit is no more complete than an electric guitar without an amp. The overall drum sound is meticulously constructed from the various parts. Close mics minimize bleed so they can process each element without affecting the others. Recorded kick drums are routinely replaced with samples. It's a whole different approach to recording drums.

 

[RecordingMaster]

That's fairly normal for metal drums. The natural acoustic sound of the kit is no more complete than an electric guitar without an amp. The overall drum sound is meticulously constructed from the various parts. Close mics minimize bleed so they can process each element without affecting the others. Recorded kick drums are routinely replaced with samples. It's a whole different approach to recording drums.

Oh I absolutely understand 100% without a doubt why close mics are used and how to use them (I am a drummer by trade), and how there is a LOT of drum replacement going on in big rock tunes these days.

I was wondering if anyone had seen this, which you say is common for metal.

Has anyone else seen this approach and what do you imagine it is "doing" for the overheads? I'd try it and just find out for myself, but it will be a few weeks at least until my next drum session.

 

[witzendoz]

I've used that exact same setup, I do this when the drummer hits the snare or drums very hard and the cymbals softer, for example in the sound check I am getting too much snare and not enough cymbals I will move the mics around until the balance is right. Some drummers hit the cymbals hard and the drums softer so in that case I may face the mics towards the drums away from the cymbals slightly. It's not always the drummer hitting things hard or soft, it could just the sound we are trying to get for that song or the particular snare is bitting or the cymbals are light gauge.

I have used every overhead setup you can imagine, they all work but just different, remember whatever works is right.

Alan.

PS, I do not use drum replacement samples, however I have used electronic kits and programming when required.

 

[Mo Facta]

Yeah, it's staged.

Cheers

 

[RecordingMaster]

I've used that exact same setup, I do this when the drummer hits the snare or drums very hard and the cymbals softer, for example in the sound check I am getting too much snare and not enough cymbals I will move the mics around until the balance is right. Some drummers hit the cymbals hard and the drums softer so in that case I may face the mics towards the drums away from the cymbals slightly. It's not always the drummer hitting things hard or soft, it could just the sound we are trying to get for that song or the particular snare is bitting or the cymbals are light gauge.

I have used every overhead setup you can imagine, they all work but just different, remember whatever works is right.

Alan.

PS, I do not use drum replacement samples, however I have used electronic kits and programming when required.

Yeah, I guess that makes sense! I had a drummer in the other day for an acoustic style band (all acoustic guitars, bass, female vocals, and drums in half of songs, cajon or percussion the rest). The drummer was practically playing like a jazz player: kick was soft and lacked impact, drum hitting was soft but cymbals were hit so quiet (like edges of crash cymbals), that they didn't even barely open up or respond. I found it hard to mix an even drum sound and almost had to scrap most of the close mics in the mix because the cymbals were sooo damn quiet in comparison. I guess this technique would have been good for THAT. And that's mostly why i ask...I have lower-than-usual ceilings in the drum tracking room and am limited to how high my overheads can go. This technique might buy me some space and be able to get less of a dirct drum mix the OH's. I always find when I am recording myself, my snare is pretty darn loud compared to everything else. So yeah, there we go.

And Mo, yeah you think these were just thrown up for the vid? I'd have to beg to differ though...I know this studio and have recorded there in past bands a couple times. His time is booked solid every day, all day and you have to wait quite some time (and pay a pretty good penny) to even get in there. So I doubt they actually booked the studio to shoot a quick vid. Although it wouldn't be the strangest thing that could happen!

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Has anyone else seen this approach and what do you imagine it is "doing" for the overheads? I'd try it and just find out for myself, but it will be a few weeks at least until my next drum session.

I have used it on kits that needed to be deconstructed and reassembled. For a good sounding kit played well I prefer X/Y overheads that capture the kit as a whole.

You say you have a low ceiling that limits your overhead placement. It would be interesting to try a single PZM taped to the ceiling as your overhead.

 

[RecordingMaster]

It would be interesting to try a single PZM taped to the ceiling as your overhead.

I am completely dead set on stereo drums (after doing mono for along time time). I'm a drummer so i notice it. Nothing worse or more annoying when you hear a double crash and they're both straight up center. Also, If I pan the toms' close mics, the overhead will only be portraying it in the center, throwing off the stereo panning I'm doing - which makes it sound kinda phasey/fuzzy of a stereo image. I'll usually pan the toms' close mics to the spot where I hear them in the stereo image of the overheads, so it's coming from the exact same place in the image from each source. Maybe 2 PZM's spaced wide and equidistant from snare? Sort of expensive just to buy to try...

Hmm.

 

[miroslav]

For a good sounding kit played well I prefer X/Y overheads that capture the kit as a whole.

I'm the same way...though I opt for the M/S setup.

Mmm...but I've been wanting to try a more "mono-ish" kit on some song...just can't seem to break away from the M/S.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

I am completely dead set on stereo drums (after doing mono for along time time). I'm a drummer so i notice it. Nothing worse or more annoying when you hear a double crash and they're both straight up center. Also, If I pan the toms' close mics, the overhead will only be portraying it in the center, throwing off the stereo panning I'm doing - which makes it sound kinda phasey/fuzzy of a stereo image. I'll usually pan the toms' close mics to the spot where I hear them in the stereo image of the overheads, so it's coming from the exact same place in the image from each source. Maybe 2 PZM's spaced wide and equidistant from snare? Sort of expensive just to buy to try...

Hmm.

If you normally have good results from a spaced pair of overheads then two PZMs could work. Even better, check out the Crown SASS-P MK II.

 

[RecordingMaster]

If you normally have good results from a spaced pair of overheads then two PZMs could work. Even better, check out the Crown SASS-P MK II.

Woah, I've never seen that before! It's certainly an un-orthodox way of capturing drums (although it does state that it works well for that). Although I'd assume it would pick up a LOT of room sound. Almost like an OH/Room sound...which may not be entirely bad. But for that price...woah! I think I'm better off trying to find a way to work with what I have since I'm not entirely dissatisfied with my CAD pencils. They may be cheap, but with some slight eq (I never compress OH's) they capture the kit very well. My only issue is the cymbals come off just a little harsh and require careful eq'ing to take out the harsh while maintaining the brilliance/air.

I'm surprised no one has said "try RecorderMan or Glyn Johns" but my issue with those is, although they sound great and capture a natural representation of the entire kit, it almost makes the actual drums TOO in your face. I like my own control over toms, and snare with close mics and to just have a bit of them in the OH's. So if I tried Recorderman or similar, if I wanted to say, bring down the snare, then I'm also bringing down the cymbal volume. Sometimes I can see why metal engineers will mic individual cymbals, although it sounds like a phase nightmare to me and is not what I am after.

Well, I guess I'll just have to try what you saw in the original vid of this post. He's a great engineer with a good resume (for a local Windsor guy) and gets all the new big Detroit bands (coming from a city that has tons of pro studios), so that says something. Plus he's a drummer. Maybe it'll work for me too. Will report back when i track drums in the next couple weeks!

Thanks for your comments and suggestions guys!