A flaw in our songwriting process...

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lomky

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I've been on Homerecording.com for many years, and I didn't even notice there was a songwriting forum.

So I'm in a punk/metal (or some such genre) band. We are currently working on new material for our new CD and changing our name. The Brewkowskis was cool and funny when we were a Blink 182 wannabe band 10 years ago.

Our writing process is: We get together bounce riffs off each other until one sticks. We mush a bunch of crap together into some sort of cohesive mess and then jam the shit out of it. The last step is to try and fit vocals in. We are a three piece (guitar player sings) so vocals aren't the priority they should be.

The problem comes in where our singer/guitar player bitches that there is no room for vocals because the songs are so complex.

http://www.myspace.com/thebrewkowskis

Please discuss
 
not the genre i would usually listen to but i think i can say nice stuff. it doesn't really sound that complex to be honest, in fact it doesn't seem that different from a lot of the stuff ive heard coming from that area of music. im not trying to suggest that you sound like everyone else, but you do a bit (not always a bad thing). you're good at what your doing but you need that extra 10 percent. lyrics are important and can seperate the bad from the good. i wonder how much your friend actually gives to the music writing process 'cause surely if they are involved in it then they should be able to sculpt the lyrics to fit!?! but if you are more predominant when it comes to creating the music then maybe you should consider writing the lyrics/vocals.

just my 2 cents worth anyway, had a couple of cans so apologies if it all sounds messed up.
 
Thank you, as far as complexity or genre busting, that is a touchy area. I am a fan of the genre that we play so myself and some others (our fans if you will) find something special and different in our songs. But I totally hear your point, and can understand your view.

i guess when I say complex, I mean busy, and the guitar player has a hard time sometimes fittng in the words and playing at the same time (live), and i forgot to mention he is blind (seriously), so that adds a whole new set of problems.

I would love to start writing, and Paul (the guitarist/singer) has said that he would like help, but I have no idea where to start. It's embarassing but I'm really not angry about anything, I just like playing aggressive music :)

as a recording guy, I know how important lyrics are. We have good friends that are the complete oposite of us, they are all about the story, yet there songs are very simple progressions.

I guess I'm wondering about other bands process to songwriting, and seeing as how I just found the songwriter's forum, I got's me some reading to do.
 
Hey man, I know when my band writes...we do what you do...just jam on it. Have your singer stop playing guitar and play the songs with his guitar work....have him sing along and try to come up with vocal melodies. If he can't play and sing the melody he comes up with...then change the guitar. If you have an awesome guitar part...and a decent melody...drop the decent melody and do the awesome guitar part...just think of something simple for the vocals.

Just try different things whenever possible to spark creativity.

good luck!
 
Words should just fit in a tune. If it calls for sparse lyrics, then do it. If many words fill it out well, again, do it. Remember, a good, but short song, always leaves someone wanting more.

Listening to your music, it's not overly complex. It sounds well done, and I didn't lose interest, even without lyrics. Make it mundane, and people could care less. Keep it interesting, and it works. None of my lyrics really could make sense to anyone else, but they usually fit the music, and give a listener an idea. The idea is what works, even if it's different than what I started with.

Too many words, and teh music may not have any meaning, and it could get boring. It all needs to fit, and there is no one formula.
 
lomky said:
Our writing process is: We get together bounce riffs off each other until one sticks. We mush a bunch of crap together into some sort of cohesive mess and then jam the shit out of it. The last step is to try and fit vocals in. We are a three piece (guitar player sings) so vocals aren't the priority they should be.

The problem comes in where our singer/guitar player bitches that there is no room for vocals because the songs are so complex.
Click to expand...

Firstly I will admit that I haven't had a chance to listen to your songs, but going by your comments, it sounds like jamming the 'shit' out of it is making it almost into an instrumental.

Whilst riffs are good, and if they are the hook, VERY important, maybe ease back on the jamming, instead of making up all different riffs and parts, firm up a chord progression, work out a place for the lyrics and work out some fills around that.

Mind you, I'm a solo songwriter so this might not apply, but if I had a band to jam with, that's how I would hope for it to work.

Daniel
 
To my way of thinking, the singing part is at least as important as the jam part. My advice is to try to develop both and see where it leads. Go back to the roots and listen to LedZep . Notice how points of interest (vocals and guitar riffs ) weave around each other, in and out. You never get bored, or beaten up by the music, cause it's always changing focus. One other point , after you listen a few times, you can hum along with the vocal AND the guitar parts, and it has a flow to it. Another good example....Bohemian Rhapsody. starting to get it?????????


chazba
 
Oh yeah....I didn't mean to leave out the Drums and Bass, They also contribute to the flow, sometimes as support, sometimes as focus. Again, see how you can hum along....?



chazba
 
Porter said:
Firstly I will admit that I haven't had a chance to listen to your songs, but going by your comments, it sounds like jamming the 'shit' out of it is making it almost into an instrumental.

Whilst riffs are good, and if they are the hook, VERY important, maybe ease back on the jamming, instead of making up all different riffs and parts, firm up a chord progression, work out a place for the lyrics and work out some fills around that.

Mind you, I'm a solo songwriter so this might not apply, but if I had a band to jam with, that's how I would hope for it to work.

Daniel
Click to expand...

hmmm, this is interesting. We do "jam the shit" out of our tunes. It's really difficult when you have an A.D.D. Drummer (aren't they all ;) ) to stay on task.
 
I was in a band like yours, shit 5, 6 years ago. something like that. We recorded, toured all that jazz and we were a 3 piece.

The trouble you talk about is sort of common i think in your (previously our) genre. The music sort of takes center stage and the vocals tend to fill it out, or, if you have a particularly lyrically driven singer, to give the band some sense of affiliation or direction. If he's poetic you are the "poetic punk/hardcore band" if he screams and is angry than you are the "angry metally hardcore band" etc. But seldom do the vocals take center stage. I think it's a limitation of the genre and not your fault!

I listended to the clip and while i would do some things differently in shaping your sound, i think that your vocals fit your style. As for the music sounding busy, you don't so don't worry, i heard a verse, i heard a bridge.

Which brings me to my tip for punk/hardcore bands. It's a two part tip, part one being relatively easy to achieve, and part two being slightly more difficult.

1. If you can identify a verse, a chorus, and a bridge, then there is plenty of room for vocals. If it is an intense all out trash for 3 minutes with no easily identifiable verse or chorus, then your vocals will be sparse. don't worry, it's ok!

2. If you can't play your song on an acoustic guitar and sing it and have it still be a cool, interesting, enjoyable song, then you need to relax. My point being that great songs, songs that have been played for years by lots of people can be played solo, accapella, guitar/vox, piano/vox.

The song itself is a gem and stands well on its own.

In the genre i started in and you guys are working in, it is a rarity. But that's ok. You take cues of how to craft songs from either the scene you're in or the bands you admire. The point remains the same: You can't squeeze blood from a chicken nugget (except at select MacDonalds yet to be sued). If there ain't room for vocals, either don't put em in, or drop the song and move on. If there are big holes in this instrumental you've got, try crafting harmonies or more complex vocal parts. Do it, you'll like it.

Brendan
 
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brendandwyer said:
2. If you can't play your song on an acoustic guitar and sing it and have it still be a cool, interesting, enjoyable song, then you need to relax. My point being that great songs, songs that have been played for years by lots of people can be played solo, accapella, guitar/vox, piano/vox.
Click to expand...

This is actually some good advise, thank you.

And your last comment about just don't put the vocals in, we did that. In fact it was the first song on our last EP. It's a rather long song all instrumental until the end. There is a six or so line verse/chorus and that's it. I kinda liked it, and it was my favorite song before I joined the band. I gave a copy of our CD to Rob (guitar player from Strung Out) and he said "I really liked the guitar playing in that first song. I thought you guys were going to be an instrumental band, but then the vocals kicked in and it was really cool"

I guess I'm kinda over-thinking things a bit, I just got nervous when our singer/guitar man said you guys should help me right some volcals/themes.

Well, thanks for the help, back to writing...
 
this might be a rude question, but why does your singer wear glasses if he's blind? (they look like regular glasses, not shades)
 
He has some sort of degeneration thing. I can't remember the exact name. He basically has tunnel vision, he says it's like looking through a tube the size of a dime. He wears glasses for his near sightedness in the tunnel. He is legally blind though. I gotta say it's a pain in the ass, 'cause we need to have the stage lights really bright, and I allways have to guid him onto the stage after I set up all his guitar shit.

Not a rude question at all, if you are still curious I can get the exact name of the condition.
 
Perhaps try jamming a capella and develop the vox in the same manner that you do with the instruments? Everybody gets a bit of lyrical input and you develop the melody as you go. When you get ready to add the instrumentation you'll know that the vocals already fit perfectly cuz they were done first. Just trying to bounce an idea your way. Please forgive if you think it won't work for you guys.
 
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