A few words will do it, maybe (vox)

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sennheisersucks
  • Start date Start date
S

Sennheisersucks

New member
I'm "experienced" in mixing instruments but not vox. Right now I'm using a carvin tube mic and a samson CO1. I am just wondering if anyone can tell me some things I would be looking for in a proper vocal track. What i(think i) know: keep lead vox mono, antares autotune is no good. What I'd like to know: what are some good frequency ranges to keep a male tenor voice in and spacially, where am I aiming to keep the voice at? Up the middle is what I know but, how far is spreading it too much? I'm ending up with vox that are just so freaking stale that people think that I didn;t even mix the instruments. Someone please help me. I'm embarassing myself.
 
Sennheisersucks said:
I'm "experienced" in mixing instruments but not vox. Right now I'm using a carvin tube mic and a samson CO1. I am just wondering if anyone can tell me some things I would be looking for in a proper vocal track. What i(think i) know: keep lead vox mono, antares autotune is no good. What I'd like to know: what are some good frequency ranges to keep a male tenor voice in and spacially, where am I aiming to keep the voice at? Up the middle is what I know but, how far is spreading it too much? I'm ending up with vox that are just so freaking stale that people think that I didn;t even mix the instruments. Someone please help me. I'm embarassing myself.

Kind of a tough question. A well recorded vocal track should require very little "mixing." The keys are really going to be the following:

Tracking:
1) Make sure the mic is a good match for the voice you are recording. I know nothing of the Carvin or Samson, but if the mic doesn't fit the voice, you are going to have problems.

2) Mic positioning is paramount. Really, mic choice and mic position should get you about 95% of your finished sound. A good starting place is to have the capsule of the mic at the level of the bridge of the nose and angled slightly down toward the ground. A distance of 6-18" away is a good starting point for many singers (depending on how much proximity effect you want). Always use a pop filter.

3) Preamp gain staging. Get a pretty hot signal, but not clipping, at the input stage. Allow plenty of room for the singer's dynamic range.

4) Other things like room acoustics, etc. can play an important role and should be addressed accordingly.

Mixing:
1) Compression - If you know a lot about compression, then you already know what to do. If not, go with a "vocal" preset on your plugin compressor for starters. Read some articles about compression to understand how to shape a vocal sound. In general, low ratios are used (3:1 or less) and the threshhold should be set to only compress the louder portions of the track. Compression should be used as and "insert" effect.

2) Reverb - I always add a small amount of reverb to vocal tracks. For quicker songs, I'll use a small area reverb (room, club, etc.). For ballads, I use a large area reverb (hall, church, etc.). Presets will get you in the ballpark and you can adjust as needed. Again, reading articles about reverb settings (like predelay) will give you a better understanding. Reverb should be used as a "send" effect. The key for me is moderation. Only use enough reverb to add some "space" back to the track. As a general rule, if you can hear the reverb on the track when all the other instruments are playing, you're using too much. Turn down the send.

3) EQ - In general, you don't want to have to boost EQ, as it will sound unnatural. A couple of dB here and there is probably o.k., but more than that and you'll ruin the track. Subtractive EQ is generally more friendly. I typically apply a low cut at about 100 Hz, but may place it higher if I'm fighting with lower frequencies. Occasionally, a high shelf boost (above 12-14000Hz) is used to add "air" to a track, but be careful.

4) Panning - I always pan the vocal up the middle, unless I'm doubling. In that case, I may hard pan the two tracks to keep them separate. Sometimes, doubling the track and keeping them both centered (with one at a lower volume and more heavily compressed) is a cool trick. Background vocals get panned away from center, usually.

Everything else is pretty much icing. Other effects I use include tube emulators, de-essers, noise gates, etc. based on what may be needed. If your recordings are "stale," it's probably not a mixing problem, though. Look at tracking issues first.

Here's a good article about EQ: http://www.digitalprosound.com/2002/03_mar/tutorials/mixing_excerpt1.htm
 
Nice reply there scrubs. I found it very informative myself. What kind of mic do you use? Preamp?
Thanks.
Ed
 
Dogman said:
Nice reply there scrubs. I found it very informative myself. What kind of mic do you use? Preamp?
Thanks.
Ed

For vocals, my main mic is an older model Rode NT1. I also use the MXL 990 (mostly for background vox) and a Nady SCM900 (a little darker sounding than the Rode). I just picked up an Electovoice RE20 and plan to try it out on vocals soon.

For preamps, I use the Groove Tubes Brick and the Studio Projects VTB-1.
 
Thanks. I am trying to get some better vocal sounds myself...
How do you mix? Do you double most stuff, or use effects, or both? My vocals seem bright. Meaning, like they were recorded separate. I think that is what the post originaly stated. How do you get vocals to sit in the mix properly? If I start with something tracked by someone else, it sits better, so I am doing something wrong on my vocals. Compression, eq...etc. What other tricks do us newbies need to learn to make vocals sit right in the mix. I have read and re-read mixing 101 by Blue Bear, and several other post, but when I listen to your vocals, or some other peoples. acapella, they are way different than mine. WQhat effects, processing.. do you use?
Thanks.
Ed
 
Dogman said:
Thanks. I am trying to get some better vocal sounds myself...
How do you mix? Do you double most stuff, or use effects, or both? My vocals seem bright. Meaning, like they were recorded separate. I think that is what the post originaly stated. How do you get vocals to sit in the mix properly? If I start with something tracked by someone else, it sits better, so I am doing something wrong on my vocals. Compression, eq...etc. What other tricks do us newbies need to learn to make vocals sit right in the mix. I have read and re-read mixing 101 by Blue Bear, and several other post, but when I listen to your vocals, or some other peoples. acapella, they are way different than mine. WQhat effects, processing.. do you use?
Thanks.
Ed

Ed,

When you say they don't sit in the mix, it's possibly both a compression and EQ issue. Adding compression to the vocal may help. The compression will even out the dynamics so that the softer parts don't get lost. Instead of EQing the vocal heavily, try to make frequency space for the vocal track in the other parts. If you know where the bulk of the vocal falls, frequency-wise (you can ballpark this, or use a spectrum analyzer to "see" it -- I use the Voxengo SPAN, which is free), you can carve out a space for the vocal to sit. For example, if the bulk of your lead vocal on a particular song is between 2000-4000Hz, then you could decrease those frequencies in the other tracks (guitar, drums, etc.) by a couple of dB to make room for the vocal.

Again, mic position is critical. The closer you are to the mic, the more "intimate," "up-front," and "breathy" your vocals will sound. As you move further away, the vocals become more distant and the quality of the room you are recording in becomes more of a factor. Also, I hang heavy blankets on my walls and drape them over mic stands around where I am recording to kill early reverb flutter from my room.

As for my specific vocal processing:

You mixed the collab that we did (Done With You), right? That vocal was a single line tracked with the NT1 through The Brick pre. There was a touch of compression from a crappy dbx (mc-6) outboard compressor during tracking (but not enough to seriously alter the sound -- just for peak control; I now have an RNC that is much better than the dbx). I applied no other effects, other than silencing some breaths before submitting it for the collab. I use a Tascam US-122 interface and record into Cubase SE at 24/44.1.

I rarely double vocal tracks. When I do, I'll often severely compress the second part (10:1 or more) and bring the level up under the main vocal (both panned to the center). I don't want to really "hear" the second vocal. I just want it to add some beef to the main vocal. Alternately, track two vocals as close as you can in volume, pitch, enunciation/phrasing, etc. Then pan them l/r for a cool modern sound. This is harder because the two takes have to be so close. Doubling can certainly beef up a weak vocal, so don't be afraid to try it out.

Typically, I use a few plugin effects that are all FREE (read - I'm a cheap bastard). I like the SpitFish de-esser from digitalfishphones. For compression, I use either the Blockfish from digitalfishphones, or, more often, the Classic compressor from Kjaerhus. I use one of the vocal presets for each.

For reverb, I use the Classic reverb from Kjaerhus a lot. I'll set it up as a send effect (using a preset -- but I may adjust the predelay (start with about 50ms)). I also use the SIR convolution reverb quite a bit. Again, I don't use lots of reverb, just enough to add some space. Maybe 10-15% send in Cubase (sometimes less). I typically run my backing tracks through the same reverb (to varying degrees) as the vocal. To me, that gives the impression that the music was all recorded in the same sonic space.

I'll often use the "Da Tube" plugin that comes with Cubase. It is a distortion/tube emulator that adds a bit of presence and dirtiness to the track. Again, a little goes a long way (as a send effect with 5-20% send). There is a free plugin called RubyTube that you could try if you don't have Cubase.

For EQ, I low cut everything below 100Hz. Here's a tip that I read somewhere: set up a parametric with a low cut at 80Hz on the soloed track. Then, sweep the frequency up until it is noticeably affecting the tone of the track, then back it down a little. That way, you eliminate any low-end clutter while still retaining the sound of the vocal. Other EQ may include a slight (1-2 dB) boost in the 3000-4000Hz range, and another slight boost in the 14000Hz range. The midrange boost will add presence. Too much and it sounds like a telephone.

That's about all I can think of. I certainly don't have any magic bullets to fix vocal tracks.
 
Actually scrubs, this helps immensly. It gives me a place to start, and then I can adjust from there. I have most of the same plugs, and since they are free, people can get and use them just like I do. I think I have been doing too much to my vocals, and really screwwing them up. Your advice helps alot.
Thanks.
Ed
 
Dogman said:
What other tricks do us newbies need to learn to make vocals sit right in the mix.
Without taking away from the good info these guys already gave you - the key to making ANYTHING "sit right" in the mix is the arrangement of the song........... that's where you should look FIRST before trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with a boatload of EQ/effects/etc...... if the arrangement itself doesn't let the vocals thru, then you'll never get them to sit right!
 
Blue Bear Sound said:
Without taking away from the good info these guys already gave you - the key to making ANYTHING "sit right" in the mix is the arrangement of the song........... that's where you should look FIRST before trying to fit a square peg into a round hole with a boatload of EQ/effects/etc...... if the arrangement itself doesn't let the vocals thru, then you'll never get them to sit right!

Good point.
 
Actually, if you want a good analogy of my ability, it's more like trying to fit a 10' 2x4 into a very small keyhole. Meaning... lot's of work needed on my part. Thanks for the great advice. Learning the parts properly, and recording them the same, are most important.
Ed
 
i know im mad late, but i have very important question

scrubs said:
Ed,

When you say they don't sit in the mix, it's possibly both a compression and EQ issue. Adding compression to the vocal may help. The compression will even out the dynamics so that the softer parts don't get lost. Instead of EQing the vocal heavily, try to make frequency space for the vocal track in the other parts. If you know where the bulk of the vocal falls, frequency-wise (you can ballpark this, or use a spectrum analyzer to "see" it -- I use the Voxengo SPAN, which is free), you can carve out a space for the vocal to sit. For example, if the bulk of your lead vocal on a particular song is between 2000-4000Hz, then you could decrease those frequencies in the other tracks (guitar, drums, etc.) by a couple of dB to make room for the vocal.

Again, mic position is critical. The closer you are to the mic, the more "intimate," "up-front," and "breathy" your vocals will sound. As you move further away, the vocals become more distant and the quality of the room you are recording in becomes more of a factor. Also, I hang heavy blankets on my walls and drape them over mic stands around where I am recording to kill early reverb flutter from my room.

As for my specific vocal processing:

You mixed the collab that we did (Done With You), right? That vocal was a single line tracked with the NT1 through The Brick pre. There was a touch of compression from a crappy dbx (mc-6) outboard compressor during tracking (but not enough to seriously alter the sound -- just for peak control; I now have an RNC that is much better than the dbx). I applied no other effects, other than silencing some breaths before submitting it for the collab. I use a Tascam US-122 interface and record into Cubase SE at 24/44.1.

I rarely double vocal tracks. When I do, I'll often severely compress the second part (10:1 or more) and bring the level up under the main vocal (both panned to the center). I don't want to really "hear" the second vocal. I just want it to add some beef to the main vocal. Alternately, track two vocals as close as you can in volume, pitch, enunciation/phrasing, etc. Then pan them l/r for a cool modern sound. This is harder because the two takes have to be so close. Doubling can certainly beef up a weak vocal, so don't be afraid to try it out.

Typically, I use a few plugin effects that are all FREE (read - I'm a cheap bastard). I like the SpitFish de-esser from digitalfishphones. For compression, I use either the Blockfish from digitalfishphones, or, more often, the Classic compressor from Kjaerhus. I use one of the vocal presets for each.

For reverb, I use the Classic reverb from Kjaerhus a lot. I'll set it up as a send effect (using a preset -- but I may adjust the predelay (start with about 50ms)). I also use the SIR convolution reverb quite a bit. Again, I don't use lots of reverb, just enough to add some space. Maybe 10-15% send in Cubase (sometimes less). I typically run my backing tracks through the same reverb (to varying degrees) as the vocal. To me, that gives the impression that the music was all recorded in the same sonic space.

I'll often use the "Da Tube" plugin that comes with Cubase. It is a distortion/tube emulator that adds a bit of presence and dirtiness to the track. Again, a little goes a long way (as a send effect with 5-20% send). There is a free plugin called RubyTube that you could try if you don't have Cubase.

For EQ, I low cut everything below 100Hz. Here's a tip that I read somewhere: set up a parametric with a low cut at 80Hz on the soloed track. Then, sweep the frequency up until it is noticeably affecting the tone of the track, then back it down a little. That way, you eliminate any low-end clutter while still retaining the sound of the vocal. Other EQ may include a slight (1-2 dB) boost in the 3000-4000Hz range, and another slight boost in the 14000Hz range. The midrange boost will add presence. Too much and it sounds like a telephone.

That's about all I can think of. I certainly don't have any magic bullets to fix vocal tracks.
Right at the paragraph where scrubs started off with "I rarely double vocal tracks"; Is that the modern day mixing practice that "professional" engineers are using on national/signed rap artists today? That effect that SOUNDS like 2 vocal tracks (but a trained ear knows its doubled somehow) of the same verse playing at the same time; one distinctively lower than the other, yet not too discreet that its not heard. If thats not it, does anyone have an idea? Im using CEP 2.1 for my mixing; and ive tried to use some of the effects presets in a couple of the chorus effects, but nothing seems to even come close.
 
Back
Top