A few questions about midi keyboards

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bishmanrock

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Sorry, I know you must see this every day. I scanned some of the other topics but I have a few specific questions that don't seem to be covered in any product reviews.

I'm currently wrestling between either a midi controller or a full on synth. The ideas I have in my head (but I'm definately not tied to) are:

Korg Microkorg XL Synthesizer - £315
Roland XP30 Synthesizer - £250
Korg Microsampler - £250

OR, I'm more leaning towards the two M-Audio midi controller choices out there, roughly at £200 (depending on the keys, either 61 or 88, would I really notice the loss if I got 61?)

Anyway, I've got a laptop with Reason + Fruityloops installed which I've been using for years and always enjoyed the sounds on. Anyway, here comes my questions:

The device will be used 90% of the time in a live environment. So:

1) When switching between effects with a midi controller, is there normally a button you can map to do this on the device, or will I have to actually go on the laptop itself and switch over to whatever sound I need?

2) My laptop soundcard probably isn't brilliant. If I'm not planning on recording for a while, will this actually be evident at all in a gigging scenario (to the average ears, at least).

As you can probably tell, this'll be my first keyboard I'm investing in to learn on, so I wanna pick something up that'll do me well for a time and I won't regret. Although I'm quite capable of setting up the laptop to use the keyboard, I just don't want to faff with it too much on stage and feel like any technical limitations are holding any sort of performance back. Anyone care to shed some light? It's a fair bit of money so I just wanna make sure I'm well advised before I hop in. There's no reason I'm tied to the devices I've listed, they're just the ones that from watching videos online seem to appeal to me.

Thanks in advance!
 
The key here being you're intention of playing Live on a stage 90% of the time.

There is an occasional post about somebody who uses Laptop, MIDI soundcard, and MIDI controller LIVE like normal synth players, but few and far between.

There's also the occasional comment from someone who has experience in using the Laptop route, Live, and comes back to say it's not simple and he struggles with changes in between songs.

I've been a hardware synth player for 26 years, and also a computer geek of a sort when it comes to DAW's and even some experience with Reason 4.0. I don't think I would want to struggle with changing programs at the end of each song on a Laptop, if I were performing Live.

I would not completely rule it out, but with all the questions I have asked on that subject, and never getting an answer (or a good answer), I continue to believe in the all-in-one synths.

While you're considering keyboards, you should check out this new Roland Gaia SH-01. Be sure to watch both videos, especially the one with Daniel Fischer demonstrating it, and keep in mind the free soundset Daniel Fischer programmed for it if you order from Sweetwater. I think you should be able to negotiate some of the price down so it's not much more than the MicroKorg XL you are considering. Oh, one last thing. This SH-01 can run on batteries which has a big appeal to me (though I'm not in the market for anything now). You could take the SH-01 to your favorite coffee shop with a pair of headphones, and program and play while working in the booth. =)

Roland GAIA SH-01 | Sweetwater.com
 
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Thanks for the response, I figured a laptop on stage might be a bit fiddly, but you've definately made me think twice. Which is good, as I was on the verge of going that route as I just figured most software would be configured for this use anyway. And besides, even though I'm a PC technician, I think I would prefer the feel and experience of an all in one and not having to faff about with a small screen notebook on stage.

It looks like it's gonna come down to the Korg Microkorg XL Synthesizer vs what you suggested. Gonna watch some videos for a couple of days, have a mull on it, although initial browsing it seems there's a pretty big price jump between the two, so might end up going for the Korg, but I'll have a hunt around first just to be sure.

And before anyone jumps in to suggest it, the only music store that had keyboards on sale folded a while back, so I can't exactly get my hands on one to check. Nightmare, I know.
 
Toddskins said:
If you could get your hands on $1500 US
Click to expand...

I probably could, but it'd destroy me and it's probably a bit insane for a first purchase! Besides, I'm not actually sure if I'd need the keys, but considering the midi controller was only £200 for 88 keys it was a bit of an option at the time.

Watching those vids now, the Roland is about £100 more expensive, but I'm definately tempted by what I see. I'm just trying to jot up a comparison in my head, but I can't see much that the Korg has on it, other than the built in vocoder.
 
Vocoder

I have vocoder on both my keyboards, and I've never used it. I've played around with it on one of them, but keep in mind, it's more or less a gimmick.

I was watching the video a few minutes ago on the Microsampler, and a number of different thoughts were going through my head:

1) If you're going to get into sampling, then you need a much better synth engine built-in to work with the sample. I'm thinking Kurzweil K2500, K2600, K2661, or the new Kurzweil PC3K8.

So here's the lesson regarding samplers: The sound you record becomes your starting point. Essentially, it's your starting wave. You then process that wave through the synth engine (whatever kind it may be), but more than likely a Digital Signal Processor (DSP) where then also you modify the sound, adjust the envelope, and lastly add an effect or two.

2) The Roland SH-01 is laid out like an analog synth, because it is one. Well, it's a Virtual Analog (VA). You'll have a LOT more fun and get a LOT more activity out of the SH-01 than you will the Microsampler. Again, recording your own sounds is really limited, and you need a great synth engine to do the recorded sound justice.

My Kurzweil K2500XS has a sampler in it, and in all the years I have created sound patches, I've only recorded my own samples, rarely. I usually find sound waveforms already useful, and then spend my hours playing with the DSP synth engine and all.

I've never been much of a fan of Roland keyboards, but this GAIA SH-01 did get my attention. Keep in mind, none of these boards you are looking at are workstations. There will be lots of features you just don't get for the amount of money in your budget. A negative about the Roland is:

* No audio inputs at all - you cannot route any signal from other gear into its synth engine and manipulate the other signal.
* Also, no sequencer (but it does have an arpegiator). Here, though, you would use your Laptop for the sequencer and that should do a good job, even Live.

+ But the Roland does have that D-beam thing which could be fun. Notice Fischer waving his hand in the air changing the sound in the video? I had wondered what that was all about, too, and discovered Roland has something called a D-beam where your hand interferes with beams of light and is interpreted as a controller movement.
 
Blah, just wrote a massive reply and clicked the wrong button!

Those cons are something I can definately live with. The Korg strikes me as looking somewhat cheaper and after reading a few reviews I've noticed a lot of people are criticising how small the keys are, so I reckon that's mostly why. Think I'm gonna shell out the extra and go for the Roland, although that website you gave me will cost me a fair bit to import it and customs will probably eat it alive, so I'm gonna have to do some price hunting over here.

I can't think of too much use for the D-beam, but it's definately fun to have, probably quite good for the ending of a song.
 
The main issue I have with hardware is the cost and how fast they become obsolete. You will be stuck with a huge keyboard that has dated sounds eventually. I personally think that getting a great laptop, software (Kontakt) for example and a great USB controller is the way to go. That way you can always update your sounds and experiment with those cool VST's that are out there.
 
That was pretty much the sole reason I was bringing midi keyboards in, just been thinking about it when I've been driving there and it's pretty hard to know what to go for without ever really touching either one.

Go on then, if I got a midi keyboard, say if I only used one piece of software so I'm not faffing about too much on stage, is there usually a way to control what VST is in use on the keyboard, or does this have to be done on the laptop itself too? That's my main major concern right now with the midi controller.
 
Fruity Loops said:
The main issue I have with hardware is the cost and how fast they become obsolete. You will be stuck with a huge keyboard that has dated sounds eventually. I personally think that getting a great laptop, software (Kontakt) for example and a great USB controller is the way to go. That way you can always update your sounds and experiment with those cool VST's that are out there.
Click to expand...

While I respect your opinion, I just think this thought completely misses the mark.

Do you think that a Stradivarius violin is really boring because it gives the same sound each time it's played?

Musicians, while partial to the sound of their instruments, are more interested in conveying their musicianship through the medium of their choice.

The contrary position is that anybody can be a musician provided he has the greatest "sounds" coming out of the speakers. And of course, any child can learn to push buttons and produce sounds.

Now, like already said, we all strive for a combination of the two, but where is the priority? Furthermore, if the priority is where I think it should be (on the musician), it almost completely rules out (in theory), the validity of the instrument itself.

One more example: Concert trained pianists have to perform on whatever piano is provided in the auditorium when they arrive at each new city. It's up to the musician to "bring out" the sound and feeling through his expertise at playing.

People, even non-musical types, can determine what you are doing in a performance - pushing buttons on a machine which plays back sounds, or watching the musician demonstrate his/her ability of touching emotions in people by their playing and ability to bring out the best through expressability.

Lastly, there are numerous musical opinions on this site as well as others (www.gearslutz.com) where synth players believe the best sounds come out of hardware, and not computer software.

I think it's still up to the original question of the OP - Is it a pain in the ass, or not, to change sounds through a laptop at the end of each song? And some songs require you to change sounds during a performance.
 
I've been thinking hard on this for a few days now, and I think I'm going to go for the midi solution (I know, shock horror).

I pulled out an old keyboard from my cupboard and used it as a controller to see what sort of limitations there were and if I felt comfortable with the software. The main question I asked in the initial post was about changing instruments each song.

It's the M-Audio Keystation 88es I'm eyeing up, which doesn't appear to have any programmable controls to change instrument. I like the look of the keystation though, so rather than get something different I'm just going to buy one of those cheap numeric-pads that administrators use and probably latch that onto the side of keyboard in order to allow quickly changing instruments, and then I can just keep my notebook propped up and not need any access to the keyboard or mouse.

The other massive weighing factor really was that just being a beginner, this should offer everything I need for the time being. I'm pretty sure that by the time I hit the stage and notice any sort of problems, I'll be much happier and confident investing into something else and know exactly what I need.

I'll let you know how this turns out!
 
I agree with you to an extent, I use reason 5 with my oxygen 61 from maudio and I have no complaints, I have never heard better piano sounds on a synth. BUT, hardware does not get obsolete that fast, I had a Korg 01W for over 10 years..and I still see it being used live, depends on the equipment it won't go obsolete that fast.
 
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