A box in a box, yes but ....

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sonical

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... my carpenter/builder friend who helps me with the construction tells me he has to attach the box to something for it to stand up. His main concern is how to have the side walls frames standing up while we work on attaching the ceiling frame.

He wants to attach (and leave them that way) the wall frames to the existing ceiling but I don't think that's a good option. Anyone with some building tricks? Thanks for helping the newbie! ;)
 
Exterior walls stay up after the roof goes on. They're not "attached" to anything else.

Sure, you need to plumb and brace the "room within a room" walls, but once the ceiling is on, its stable. Once its sheathed or drywalled, its rigid.

maybe take a look at some of my construction pics here:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/Studio/Mainpage/MP-Carriage.htm

Make sure you also check-out "update 1".
 
We sort of figured that out too, were wondering how it is done by the "pros". Thanks for your input Michael! Your studio already looks great, wow 1200 sq. ft!!! I only have a garage to play with :)

Actually we're using aluminium studs so the frame is less rigid so what we gonna do is have 4x4's on each corner mounted on the floor with those metal sockets to hold them in place. They will be like pillars for us to build from. I hope it doesnt defeat the purpose of using aluminium studs ...

Another concern is running the ceiling joists that will hold the drywall: my friend is afraid they will eventually bend (over 10ft for the control room) with the drywall weight, even if we use wood. I suggested he attached the joists (or studs? how do we call them?) to the existing ceiling then using a RC before the drywall. I would however prefer avoid any connecting point between the new room and the existing one except for the floor.

So are our concern about the ceiling joists bending over time legitimate or not?
 
sonical said:
"...So are our concern about the ceiling joists bending over time legitimate or not?"
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If you were using regular wood frame studs, I'd say to run "gluelams" for your ceiling joists. Two 2x6's "glued" together will span 20' easy.
But your not using wood.

You may want to look into some pre-fabricated ceiling trusses, metal ones, and drywall the walls before you drywall the ceiling.
 
You need to find another carpenter/builder because the guy you're working with doesn't know WTF he is doing.

First off, you're using steel studs, not aluminum.

Second, you'd be better off using conventional wood framing techniques if you want to stand joists on top of your framed wall and then hang drywall to them, especially spanning over 10 feet. Light gauge (22ga) steel studs aren't engineered to support the weight of a ceiling resting atop them. You can probably get away with 16 ga studs and track if you support the weight of the ceiling with wires from the existing structure.

You can certainly use steel studs to frame your ceiling, and one approach is to reinforce the steel joists with blackiron. Use 8 gauge ceiling wires for this. Drill an eye screw into your existing ceiling joist and fasten the wire to it. Start about a foot off each wall. You'll want to do this every 4 feet in either direction of your ceiling. Then, once your framing is installed, wrap the wire around the blackiron a couple times, then THREE complete wraps up the wire towards the existing ceiling.

Consider that a bundle of 4x12x5/8 drywall weighs 225 pounds. That works out to 2.3 pounds PER SQUARE FOOT installed single layer. Two layers of sheetrock and you're over 5 pounds/square foot hanging above your head, PLUS the weight of the framing. So you better have a pretty good idea of what you're doing if you don't want to be wearing it some afternoon when you least expect it!!!!!

I'm getting the strong impression that you are doing this without a building permit. I strongly recommend against this approach. Permits don't cost very much, and if you have a fire or other mishap in a garage converted to "living space" your insurance company is going to tell you to get lost if you ever file a claim. Also, your local building inspector should be able to help you a bit with design issues and they'll certainly tell you what they'll buy and what they won't.

Good luck!!!!
 
C7, I agree with everything on your last post EXCEPT this:

"support the weight of the ceiling with wires from the existing structure." - This completely defeats the purpose of building a "room-in-a-room" - the wires will conduct building noise directly to the ceiling frame, and you've just wasted your time.

What you need to do if using a wire-supported ceiling, is to use one of these

http://www.kineticsnoise.com/architectural/af.html

placed inline with each and every wire that supports the ceiling.

When you're trying to seriously isolate a room, ANY non-resilient connection to the outside world is BAAAAD... Steve
 
Assumptions, assumptions ... tss tss. Your participation is nevertheless appreciated Mr Bb/C .

knightfly, RC over existing ceiling studs, good option for 2 layers of plywood (with rockwool inside)?
 
When you post such sparse information what else can one do but make assumptions??? If you want more accurate answers to complex questions then post more info..........

Folks come in here all the time that don't know their ass from a hole in the ground about construction techniques. I didn't gather anything from your question that would set you apart from that bunch.:)

I realize that wires will transmit sound, but if the guy is set on using steel stud joists that's what's gonna be required.

Like I said, I would frame in wood myself.
 
C7, first off if you looked at that link you'd see that you still use wires, you just "interrupt" them with isolators to block the flanking noise they transmit.

Second, OF COURSE Sonical doesn't know - would he be asking questions if he did?

Third, it's much easier to feel superior to people who don't know things that YOU know, when you forget that once upon a time YOU didn't know them either...

Oh, yeah, I'd frame (at least the ceiling) in wood too. Using 20 live, 10 dead load, 2+better Doug fir 2x8's on 24" centers will span 13'1", so upping that to 2x10's would be enough overkill to hang 3-4 layers of wallboard without worrying about sag.

Sonical - don't let your "carpenter friend" ruin the sound isolation you're going for - NOTHING, other than maybe some flexible sway braces, should EVER bridge between leaves of a properly built sound wall. You can brace frames while you're putting wallboard up, but after that the braces go away. The wall panels become the bracing, and with several layers of wallboard on a frame it will be at least as strong as plywood and wood frames.

Oh, and Sonical, FYI a "stud" is a vertical frame support, a "plate" is the bottom or top horizontal piece that the "studs" fasten to, and the second top horizontal can be called a "cap", "double", etc - horizontal support framing is called a "joist", whether it's in a floor or a ceiling.

Now, when you get to England, you get to start over and learn all new words for EVERYTHING...

Speaking of which, is that where you're from? I noticed the way you spelled "aluminium" -

If you ARE from England, I feel your pain - I've been in contact with another builder from there, and just found out that wallboard is over 5 TIMES as expensive there as it is in the US, and 2x4's cost about $1.25 per FOOT - holy shit...

anyway, here's a site that will further your education by light years (maybe not in actual carpentry, but for studio building...

http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/help.htm

Don't OD on that, just read everything 2-3 times and let it sink in. And do it BEFORE you start to build... Steve
 
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knightfly said:
Third, it's much easier to feel superior to people who don't know things that YOU know, when you forget that once upon a time YOU didn't know them either...
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Very well said!
Super educative post knightfly, I've been reading a lot about construction in the last months, here and at other sites. I've learned a lot and tried to digest it the best I could (keep in mind i am a musician) but as always there are some points that are still not too clear and some issues I didn't know about until the builder had raised them.

So I guess I could have formulated my question better :)

Thanks a bunch for the info folks, rest assured I'll have more dumb questions ... eh eh eh.

( no, not from england but france)
 
knightfly said:
C7, first off if you looked at that link you'd see that you still use wires, you just "interrupt" them with isolators to block the flanking noise they transmit.
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Dammit, logged in as Riley again.:mad:

I knew that without looking at the link, Steve. Honestly, it didn't even occur to me to suggest those as part of the solution.

Hey, I'm not trying to be condescending, and I CERTAINLY DON'T have all the answers.

When I said "would be required" I meant, yeah, if you wanna frame in steel you gotta support it with wires, whether they have kinetic isolation or not..............

Also, I had no idea the guy is in England, or that wood costs so much over there. I'm in the NW and wood is cheap as can be here.

I thought about framing my room addition in steel stud, but the availability is through wholesale houses only and wood is everywhere..........
 
Hey C7 packing 357 :=) I'm in Oregon, same probs here - no matter what you try to do, some dip doesn't have, or can't get, or doesn't even KNOW, what you're talking about...

Favorite joke: These people that think they know everything, really piss off those of us who actually DO... :=)

Turns out Sonic is in France - probably as bad for materials there, for all I know. I'm not kidding, I got prices on 5/8 sheet rock for 3 x 9 foot sheets (??!?) that, when I converted to 4 x 8 it figured out to $27 per 4 x 8 sheet - unreal. Last time I checked Home Depot it was about $5.65 a sheet, and a little over $8 for 12 foot. I can see why the assholes in charge over there slowly took ALL their guns before they REALLY fucked them... Steve
 
knightfly said:
... I can see why the assholes in charge over there slowly took ALL their guns before they REALLY fucked them... Steve
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Yep!
Well said.
 
... but! last time i was in france clinton was still in 1st term. yeah politics over there are something else ... i'm sort of glad i got out.
and you guys are right, constr. materials are much more expensive than in the US ... actually the whole system this country lays on is so rigid that entrepreneurship and personal growth are not easy to achieve. anyways, a whole other debate ;)
 
I'm sure my bldng inspector will straighten me up on that but i am in the planning stages now, trying to figure out a budget.

I need further education: does a wall that supports a ceiling (in a "self-holding" box construction like some of you described above) is considered load-bearing? My question being in fact ( ;) ) is 2.5" 20 gauge regular metal studs 16" O.C a good design choice for this type of construction?

The USG handbook has lots of info but I just didn't find that one (it's probably in there though!).
 
Any exterior wall is load bearing. So is any wall that is used to shorten the span of a truss.
If you're doing a room within a room, and those walls are supporting a typical ceiling, then they are bearing a load.

Studs at 16" on center are typically used for load bearing walls. 24" centers are used for non load bearing walls. Be sure to check your local building code though.
 
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