A BIG Difference

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Sennheiser

Sennheiser

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I just listened to two albums by the same artist back to back. Recorded twenty years apart.

I have my consumer audio equipment running through the console so I was able to observe the meters on both mixes.

The first cut peaked at 0VU of course as it should have, but fluxuated a lot between the soft parts and the loud parts. All the way down to -9VU.

The second CD held almost a constant 0VU and did not go below -3VU during the whole album.

In addition, when I put the newer CD in the drive I had to turn down the volume on the amp when it started playing.

One was recorded on 2" 24 track. The other I'm not sure, but was probably the same mastered in a computer or other digital device.

I guess everyone is out for the hottest mix. Sheesh:(
 
Yup. It sucks to be in The Loudest CD On The Block club.
 
Sennheiser said:
I just listened to two albums by the same artist back to back. Recorded twenty years apart.
Click to expand...
That wouldn't happen to be Steely Dan would it?

AJA - 1977, Two Against Nature - 2001

Very similar level characteristiccs to what you describe....!
 
It could have been Aerosmith too. Black Sabbath. Shit, ANY BAND that is still putting out CD's that started 20 years ago and you would see this vary thing.....:(

Track Rat stated the proper sentiment really. It is a shame that kids don't get to hear sonically superior recordings these days. Really, a lot of newer music would benefit from a smoother sound, rather than this grainy, over-compressed, non-dynamic crap that is always getting released.

You know, the big time mastering engineers should just start their own freakin' union and agree on some standards for peak limiting or something and all stick to it. What the hell could the labels do if EVERY big mastering engineer said "I will master this to sound GREAT, NOT to be LOUD!"?

LOL...will never happen...but a nice thought anyway. :)

I will continue to master at levels that exibit as little of these sonic artifacts as I possibly can. The bands who's sound I really care about care about it themselves and don't make me "push the limit" like the bands that don't sound so hot do.

Ed
 
"You know, the big time mastering engineers should just start their own freakin' union and agree on some standards for peak limiting or something and all stick to it. What the hell could the labels do if EVERY big mastering engineer said "I will master this to sound GREAT, NOT to be LOUD!""

ronald reagan errr.... GWB will just step in and fire em all like the Aircraft control guys
 
The only ones who will change this are the customers!

High!

I think the only way that might change this is: THE CUSTOMER. I have to admit, that I'm a guy that is quite into the loud cd productions, I think things like the garbage album with the rose on it or the new no doubt album are still on the right side of the line, but... (keep in mind me doing something like punk rock that IMO needs quite a lot of compression in all stages of the mixing)

Especially here in Germany there seem to evolve mastering practiques that are by far worse that in these albums. I had to stop listening to the new lambretta album and put it back immediately, as it was SOO distorted in the high end. It really hurt in the ears. Some guys I know have noticed that, too and they're not into recording/mixing. Even though this albums sells damn good, might this be a starting change of habits at the customer side? Will it at least stop the increase in loudness?

Hopefully...

aXel
 
volltreffer, you are correct sir. I must admit, many times when I do a band they'll inveriably complain "can you make it loud like blah blah blah's CD? Into Timeworks Mastering Compressor it goes.:rolleyes:
 
Maybe it will start when someone{BIG artist} releases a "limited" run "dynamic" release's..kinda like when you got virgin vinal,picture disks ect...Make it collectable and it could be moved in small quanitys..Then maybe who knows..


Don
 
Track Rat said:
volltreffer, you are correct sir. I must admit, many times when I do a band they'll inveriably complain "can you make it loud like blah blah blah's CD? Into Timeworks Mastering Compressor it goes.:rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Do you use the Timework's 'wall' limiter on your two tracks? I'm finding it very useful on the individual tracks.
Wayne
 
I play around with the Timeworks Mastering Compressor, Waves L-1 Ultramaximizer and C-4 Multiband compressor if someone insists on extra volume.
 
You know I was talking to a friend at a party the other day. We both recently finished CDs of our music and had them mastered. He's not really a 'techie' - just a musician and he was talking about how great the mastering guy he took his stuff to was and how loud he made it and how great it sounded because it was so loud. I, on the contrary, was telling him about how when I got home from the mastering session, the CD was so loud and distorted, I to it back to get it fixed. I opened it up in Soud Forge and the waveforms were totally clipped off square waves. It turned out that the guy I took mine to normalized the sh*t to +3dB AFTER we dumped everything to the computer. In other words, we were listening to the songs and he was tweaking the EQ, compression, etc. then after its sounding good, he dumps it to the computer and just normalizes the shit without listening to what the normalization is doing to the sound. When I took it back, I asked him to just normalize it to 0dB. He replied that normalizing like this is what people do to increase the volume and that it won't be as loud as everything else if he took down the level. I said that I didn't care and the new (quieter) version sounds much much much much better to me. He also tried to tell me some other bullsh*t about how the normalization was just bringing out distortion that was already present in the recording and went on to try and blame it on the media (this was a digital recording). Enough ranting......

Anyhow, what I'm trying to get at is that we, as recordists, are very intimately connected with the songs we record and can hear the artifacts of over-limiting and loss of dynamic range caused by this desire to slam the crap out of a recording. However, the average listener (even the artists themselves), thinks the louder version SOUNDS BETTER. Whether you agree with that or not is just a matter of personal taste....
 
ebeam, that's one of the scariest stories I've heard.
 
It is funny because I can always hear the exact moment the limiter starts to kill the sound.

That IS a scary story ebeam. That almost sounds like a guy in the mid west that mastered a CD for a member on this bbs. I couldn't believe how badly this big named mastering engineer killed the mixes. Thing was, there was so much compression, eqing and limiting going on, it really didn't sound all that loud per se. It just sounded distorted and horrible.

I was just listening to a bands CD who I did some editing for this summer. They had a VERY big time mastering engineer master it. I had the benefit of hearing the pre mastered mixes too. I was not impressed at all. The mastering took a lot of clarity and depth out of the mix. I feel I could have done the same thing in Wavelabs for a lot less money for them. :)

Loud is going to far these days. It is annoying to listen to most modern rock productions.

Ed
 
Yeah, I was actually thinking about posting an account of my mastering experience. This wasn't just some dude with some Waves plugins either. We're talking Sonic Solutions and some top notch outboard gear. Anyhow, maybe I'll rip some mp3's of the pre-mastered and the two mastered versions (loud and super loud) tonight and post them in the morning. It won't be much of a guessing game, but at least you can hear what I'm talking about.
 
sometimes I wonder why mastering is done at all... I mean it's ok to limit peaks - real peaks, not to ruin your speakers or something like that. but you could do this in the mixing or even recording stage, right?

so why make it all sound loud? if you want it loud, turn up the damn stereo!
 
Mastering isn't about "making it louder" -- it's about adding the final polish to a mix in preparation for release... "final polish" involves a variety of tweaks....
 
blue bear, of course you're right - but I still don't get the point of the "loudness-fetishism".

by the way (might be a dumb question, I really don't know it): were records beeing mastered in the time before the "digital age"?
 
That's when it was born. Taped music had to be mastered for vinyl so the records would track. If not, the over dynamic material on vinyl would spit the needle out of the grooves.
 
Mastering came about because special handling was required to transfer a mix over onto vinyl.

Mastering engineers had to work the cutting lathe and make any level adjustments that could cause grooves to be cut incorrectly (which is also the historic reason for high-energy tracks such as bass and kick being placed in the center)
 
heh... Track got to it first!

His post wasn't there while I was replying........
 
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