424mkII recording advice, please. .

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studiodrum

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Okay, . So, I got a little dilemma, . .I need to record a 3 song demo, on a 424 mkII. . and using drums, bass, guitar, keyboards, lead vocals, and BU vocals. . .

I realize that it can recorded live. . .But, I would like to try and record it in as many separate tracks as possible. . . Now the good news is that I have a Pioneer 555RW cd burner. So, I think that I might be able to bounce all 4 tracks at a time, . . and not loose too much quality in the process. . . .I thought that I would record 4 tracks, . .then mix those 4 tracks onto the cd burner, . . then record those 4 mixed tracks back onto track 1 on the 424, . . .and have 3 tracks left, . .and so on. . .

The only two requirements that I have is that I would like to lay down the drums, and bass first, .and that the Lead vocals, and BU vocals cant be recorded at the same time---- I'm recording the drums in mono. SO, I was planning on using an OH Mic (Track 1) a Kick mic (Track 2), and a Snare mic (Track 3) . . and the Bass Guitar on Track 4. . .then mix them to the cd burner, and send all 4 mixed tracks, back to Track 1, . and have 3 Tracks left. . .

Have I totally confused everyone so far. . . So, I guess what I'm trying to say is, . .Can you guys give me some ideas, . . on the best way to record Drums, Bass, Guitar, Keyboards, Lead Vocals and B/U Vocals with a 4 track recorder, . . .using a cd burner to bounce the tracks???

. . .or am I just being way too ambitious. . . Cheers everyone
 
Your idea is perfectly legit. Once you have the bass and drums tracked and bounced there's nothing to stop you recording the keyboards and backing vox on the remaining three tracks, doing another external bounce and return to two tracks and then using the remaining two tracks for the lead vocal and the guitar.


A bit of ambition never hurt anyone ;)
 
Okay,... you have all your bouncing schemes down pat.;)

I say,...

Mic the drums with kick/snare/OH w/3 mics & bass guitar DI or mic'd. Take the 4 inputs, playing live, and mix them down to the best drum/bass mix you can,... in MONO, (pan: center). Record the bass/drum mix to Track 1.

Then, either...

Record the guitar & keyboard down to track 2, leaving 3 & 4 for lead/bu-vocals,

or...

Record the guitar to track 2 by itself, record lead vocal on 3, and record b/u-vocals and keyboards onto track 4, (played simultaneously).

Those 2 scenarios are what I would use and may (IMO) yield a better sound, by "packing the tracks" more on the first pass, as opposed to bouncing. (IMO) A primary-track sound is always better than any number of bounced tracks. I've done both. I'll take a packing-the-tracks technique over bouncing, whenever possible.

Bouncing is cool for raising your "virtual" track count significantly, and it's there if you need it, but there's always some sonic degradation that occurs when you bounce. You can get respectable results bouncing, and it's a very utilitarian technique, but it'll never sound like it's discrete track counterpart.

In the end, you use what's best for you. I'm not a big fan of bouncing, but try both ways of production, if you have time, & use your ears to choose. Good luck!:)
 
Next idea:...

Get the 488mkII, and record:
Track 1 - kick drum
Track 2 - snare drum
Track 3 - O/H drum
Track 4 - bass
Track 5 - guitar
Track 6 - keyboard
Track 7 - backup vocal
Track 8 - lead vocal,...

and call it a day!;)
 
Thanks for the words of inspiration Mark. . .

A Reel Person said:
Get the 488mkII, and record:
and call it a day!;)
Click to expand...
Dave man, . . YUR KILLIN ME!!! LOL
Don't laugh, . . I've been seriously contemplating upgrading to an 8 track ,. .If I can find one in time for this new project I will definitely try and snag one, . .Then you wont hear me crying about how, do I do this with my 424, . .how do I do that with my 424, . It will be more like PLEEEEEZE, HELP ME WITH MY 388!!!! lol Yeah, baby!

Anyway, . .Of course, I do have a few more questions about recording the drums, bass, guitar, keyboard, lead vocals, and b/u vocals on my 424.

If I'm using Tracks 1, 2, 3 and 4 to record the drums and bass. Is it possible to plug a (stereo) click machine into channels 5/6, or 7/8. So, that the drums, and then bass player can both hear it during tracking???

. .and the other question is, . .What would be the best position for the 3 drums mics? especially the overhead. I'm using a LDC condenser for the overhead, a SM57 for the snare, . and a AT Pro 25 for the kick. . . Thanks! HAPPY NEW YEAR. . .
 
If you're going "Direct" on 1/2/3/4, then you may

plug a click track into 5/6 or 7/8, and it will feed the L/R Stereo buss and Monitor, but will not route to any tape track.

I think the overhead mic should be up & behind, between the two toms and two (main) cymbals,... hopefully in an equidistant configuration to both toms and cymbals, if that's possible. (Not too high). I find it adequate to position the snare mic at a point that it picks up the hihat and snare, but I like the kick drum to be as close as possible to the front drum skin. If you have one of those kick drums with no front skin or a hole in the front skin, it's fine to poke the mic in there, for isolation.

Yeah,... the 388 is the bomb, and would be a substantial upgrade to the 424mkII. With 8 tracks, most of your basic 4-track dilemmas go away,... and so do the questions of how to squeeze stuff down to 4 tracks! Heh.

;)
 
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Thanks for the Mike placement info!!!

Hey Dave! Happy New Year man, . . and thanks for the quick response. .

Yeah, . The 388 would be an awesome upgrade for me, . especially now that I want to record all these instruments. . .

A Reel Person said:
plug a click track into 5/6 or 7/8, and it will feed the L/R Stereo buss and Monitor, but will not route to any tape track.;)
Click to expand...
That's great! Good to know. . .

So, tell me. . is it possible top record the bass guitar going directly into the mixer. . .either the 424 mkII, or the 388, . or will I need some kind of a passive, or active DI Box. If, so, . .what's the cheapest DI box that I could get away with, . . .

AND. . . just out of curiosity. If I was to go the 788 route. What type of pre's does the 788 have? I'm assuming I would have to buy some XLR - 1/4" Adapters for my XLR Mics, . .or would it be possible to use a mixer like the M-30, and use that to track with the 788. .. ?

I'm just trying to weigh my options. . . Anyway, . .Nice chatting with you again!
 
Okay,...

You can plug the bass DI directly into the 1/4" input jack on the 424mkII's mixer,... (or 388).

The 788 is a whole other topic. The preamps are decent, but there are only 4 preamps, with balanced 1/4" TRS inputs that accept either balanced or unbalanced mic/line sources. The 788 will record up to 8-tracks simultaneously, but it only has 6 viable inputs for recording! (4-mic/line with preamps & 2-aux in's at line level). So that knocks your effectivesimultaneous recording count down to 6 tracks. Also, as I've found out, there's no way to internally "buss" inputs together to record multiple inputs to one track!... (a glaring design deficiency).

I've considered the utility of front-ending a 788 with an M30 mixer, and that would give you a great 8x4 bussed mix to the 788, w/4-track-simul capability, (basic patch), and up to 6-simul (with more creative patching),... but you're not all that much better off with that (788+M30=2-pieces) as with the 424mkII.

The 388 as a one-piece, self-contained 8-input/8-simul recording platform just edges out the 788/M30 combination, in my estimation. Sure, the 388 is large, but it's more capable up-front than the 788/M30 combo, plus when you consider the 2-piece arrangement and size of the 788/M30, you're losing utility and not gaining much in size/weight savings.

The 788 is small, indeed. However, the 788 left me a bit disappointed with no internal bussing of inputs, and the 6-simul track limit on recording. Other than that, it's a fairly nice unit. And did I say it's small? :eek:

As with all things like this, YMMV!
 
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A Reel Person said:
Now, I've considered the utility of front-ending a 788 with an M30 mixer, and that would give you a great 8x4 bussed mix to the 788, w/4-track-simul capability, (basic patch), and up to 6-simul (with more creative patching),... but you're not all that much better off with that (788/M30=2-pieces) as with the 424mkII.
Click to expand...
Very good point. . .You are absolutely right about that. . .

A Reel Person said:
The 388 as a one-piece, self-contained 8-input/8-simul recording platform just edges out the 788/M30 combination, in my estimation. Sure, the 388 is large, but it's more capable up-front than the 788/M30 combo, plus when you consider the 2-piece arrangement and size of the 788/M30, you're losing utility and not gaining much in size/weight savings.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I cant agree with you more, . .The 388 is the way to go, . No question about it. The only other route, would be to get a 238, and match that with a M30. Especially, since I really like the ease, and convenience of Cassette tapes, and I love the M30 mixer. . .for me, and for what I do, . .its an awesome mixer. But, if I'm going to make that type of upgrade. . I just might as well get the 338.

Okay, . so I'm still a little fuzzy on recording the bass guitar direct. Can I go directly into the board without a DI or will I need a DI box for both the 424, and the 388. Is there a decent DI box under $100 that would work. . How do you usually record the bass guitar. .?
 
You don't need a DI box.

Y'know, the 238 and the M30 would be a nice setup! You're still edging the 788 there. The 238/M30 combo would be comparable to the 688. You might want to look at the 688, instead. The M30 gives you better EQ and large VU meters, but the 688 gives you true 8x8 mixing and 8-simul recording, onboard. This also edges out the 788, IMO. Still, the 238 and M30 would be a worthy setup. I should patch mine up and give it a road test for'ya.;)
 
great questions, a few to add

to "Reel" Dave or any others in the know...
i read studiodrums posts and responses which were very helpful. my setup is very similar (but we're only doing bass, drums, guitar, vox) and i have an additional question for the forum.

quick description of the setup:
everything recorded onto a 424MKII. using a Eurorack mixer(borrowed form a friend) with 4 XLR or 1/4 mic LINE IN, and a L and R 1/4 MAIN OUT. needed this mixer dedicated to just the drums, and also for its phantom power for two condensers. into the mixer: 3 mics (kick, snare/hi-hat, overhead). into the 4Trk: 1 mic for guitar, 1 mic for bass, 1 line in from vox preamp.

my main question:
can I run the L & R MAIN OUT from the mixer into the extra 5/6 (R) and 7/8 (L) 1/4 inputs on the recorder, while recording them live to tape (bounce them?) in stereo onto Trk1 (L) and Trk2 (R)? i'm hoping this will then save me the 1/4 line-in inputs on 1 and 2, which i can use to bring in the guitar (L) and vox (R), direct, still recording everything at the same time only on Trks 1 & 2, switching my INPUT selector all the way right to "mic/line R or L. Then i have Trk3 1/4 input reserved solely for bass (which i want on its own dedicated track) and Trk 4 reserved for overdubs (guitar leads, additional vox).

the main goal:
to record the main Trks live; all 3 of us playing together at the same time in the room, as if it is a regular practice (we work best this way, playing off each other and hearing everything in real time). we'll have a little isolation for the cabinets, but if it bleeds over no big deal. i want to get the meat and potatoes on 3 primary Trks, then have a whole Trk 4 saved to do the overdubs by myself. ideally:
Trk 1 - live drums, live guitar
Trk 2 - live drums, live vocals
Trk 3 - live bass
Trk 4 - overdubbed guitar, overdubbed vox

sorry for writing my recording life story; felt it was all relevant. i want to be able to have this setup ready so its plug and play for practice, and its hard to mess around with all this stuff alone. mostly i want to know what can be done using the the 5/6 and 7/8 inputs, in hopes of conserving tracks. if things go well and i get more into recording maybe i'll spring for an 488 and ditch the external mixer...

thanks again
 
Hello!

Your details are all relevant, and there's a good answer out there somewhere, but I'll need a little time to read and think about your setup and questions. I like these mid-level questions, as it shows you've advanced past the very beginner stages in your productions. However, I'll reserve answering until I've read more thoroughly and thought about it for a while.

Those long posts between studiodrum and myself were enlightening, indeed, but keep in mind I devoted a lot of time to those posts in thinking about it, before any answers were posted. After the fact, it looks like a quick-read, but those posts were long in coming,... sometimes over days or weeks.

When you say you'd maybe upgrade to the 488, I always think that's a better idea than to rely heavily on bouncing schemes. Also, I'd stick with the 488mkII, as it has better features over the 488(std). However, keep in mind that the 488 records up to 4-tracks simultaneously, so although that's not a show stopper in the least, it is a technical consideration. the 488mkII is a good stepping stone move from the 424mkII.

If you really want a problem solver, look into a setup that mixes at least 8x4 or 8x8 and records up to 8-tracks simultaneously,... namely, the 388, 688 and 238 with 8x4 mixer (such as the M30 or above).

Anyway, I'll study your question, and hopefully have a more relevant answer soon!! By now, after all my consultations, studiodrum himself might be able to venture a helpful answer.;)

Be back later.
Welcome to the board!!
 
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results

ok, I was able to do some experimenting this weekend and he're what i learned:

it IS possible to bring in the L & R outputs on a mixer into the 5/6 and 7/8 inputs, then to assign them to Trk1 and Trk2, as a L & R. you can then add another instrument to the track using the 1/4 input, with its own individual line level apart from the 5/6 (or 7/8). the way i did this was to put my Input Selector Switch all the way to the right, which makes Trks 1 & 3 pan Left, and Trks 2 & 4 pan Right. 5/6 is set as Right, and 7/8 Left. i recorded drums on 1 & 2, along with guitar (1) and vox(2), and bass by itself on 3, but NOT direct, but as pan L. this left me Trk4 (R) to do additional vox and guitar later.

now, you absolutely have to adjust the levels of each line going in intially, taking into account that it the instrument is either going to be L or R, or else you'll have too loud of guitar stuck on Trk1 with half the drums (from the mixer, into 5/6), in which there is no way to go back and adjust it during mixdown. because if you raise or lower the fader you're going to not only bring down your guitar but also the drums that are sharing the track. you pretty much have to get your mix right in the beginning, because afterward you can really only mess with the L & R balance and not the individual levels.

this was sort of a drawback, as the L & R method did work, but i hated not being able to adjust the levels or EQ of each instrument independently after it went to tape. what I ended up with was a weak kick drum and too loud vox, and nothing i could do about it after the fact.

Round 2 I decided to simplify and ditch the extra overdub track and run each instrument direct on its own line. i used a 2-to-1 1/4" stereo adapter to bring in the mixer, so only the drums were on Trk1. vox were on 2, bass 3, and guitar 4. Input Selector Switch for all 4Trks set all the way to the left to "direct". this worked better and i was able to adjust and mix down each instrument separately. but i lost my overdub track which i hoped to have for suping up whatever the song needed. also the drums on Trk1 sounded weak, as though they were being stifled by the 2-to-1 adapter, so later i ended up just running them in mono from the mixer. this was a little bit better but still not great.

a note about the Eurorack mixer: i never used one before and it was a disappointment to find out they are really noisy. when you put your headphones directly into the Eurorack you can make a nice mix, balancing the kick, snare and overhead beautifully. but then when you go to feed it into the 4Trk it brings in all this hiss and hum, not as bad as like an unplugged amp or something, but enough to be distracting and decrease the fidelity of the instrument. it is entirely possible i am not EQing right, or have the gain up too high on the mic preamps, but i tinkered around and couldn't get it to go away no matter what the variable. what you get listening to the 4Trk on headphones is fairly crisp guitar, vox and bass, with bad muffled and tinny drums. the snare sounded thin and the bass drum was barely audible.

need to experiment some more, mostly with the drums to get a better result. my newest idea is to record direct and live the drums on 1, guitar on 2, bass on 3. then bounce the guitar and bass to 4, then go back and record extra guitars on 2 and vox on 3. but then the lacking instrument without its own level is bass, which is a dominant part of our music, and would like to be able to control by itself. so maybe some other combination might have to happen.

i really wished i had hired some helper monkeys while doing all this, its pretty tough to EQ a drum set while playing it...
 
You might be better off ditching the extra mixer and just going direct into the 424. If you can stand the thought of sacrificing the stereo drum track then you should be able to use buss left or right to send the drums to one track whilst using direct to send the bass to a track on the opposite side. Of course, you could record the bass and drums together on the same track and use direct for the guitar.
 
Yeah, there's a lot going on there.

I won't dissect your setup or session at this point, but only to say there are multiple patches and methods for solving these mixing questions.

I've still not come up to speed on all the details, but I agree with Mark, that you should try to max out the onboard mixer before bringing in an external mixer.

What's causing your mixer line to hum is kind of a mystery, but it may be that the 424mkII and external mixer have ground loop problems. Try attaching a clip lead between something metal on the 424's chassis to something metal on the Behringer's chassis.

When you mix lots of elements down to 4-tracks, you wind up with tracks of instruments that are packed together, so it's always best to get the best mix possible on the way in, 'cause after it's set on tape, you can't separate the elements for individual tweaks. Sometimes this type of session is easier with helpers, or even a separate monitoring area, but it can be done by a single person by himself,... with some added difficulty.

Thanx!! ;)
 
thanks guys

Mark7 said:
You might be better off ditching the extra mixer and just going direct into the 424. If you can stand the thought of sacrificing the stereo drum track then you should be able to use buss left or right to send the drums to one track whilst using direct to send the bass to a track on the opposite side. Of course, you could record the bass and drums together on the same track and use direct for the guitar.
Click to expand...

right on. i think i need the mixer for its phantom power for the condenser mics. but then again i could always get a separate unit for this.

maybe i'll try to borrow an 8-trk and use that instead. i wanted to exhaust the possibilities of the 4-trk first and see how it worked. but at the end of the day after listening to the results i can't help wanting extra tracks for the drum mix, leads, doubling up the guitars, extra vox, etc. 8 would allow me more possibilities for sure....i'll keep experimenting though and post on the forum if i learn anything worthwhile...

thanks again for your replies! -chris
 
A Reel Person said:
When you say you'd maybe upgrade to the 488, I always think that's a better idea than to rely heavily on bouncing schemes. Also, I'd stick with the 488mkII, as it has better features over the 488(std). However, keep in mind that the 488 records up to 4-tracks simultaneously, so although that's not a show stopper in the least, it is a technical consideration. the 488mkII is a good stepping stone move from the 424mkII.
Click to expand...

I made this exact move ten or twelve years ago. I still have both machines and it was great being able to use what I learned on the 424 straight to the 488. I really liked the 10 loc points the 488 has and miss having that many with my current equipment (Tascam MSR16 and Mackie MDR24). I think this is good inexpensive advice. You can also send everything from your 424 into the 488 without any trouble if that is a consideration. jmho, Dave.
 
No. Are you Studiodrum after forgetting his log in information and re-registering?
 
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