4-Track Newbie. Help with some basics?

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Alan342

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Ok well I wasn't really prepared for all the finer things when I got the 4-track. It's an old mid 90's Fostex XR-7. A little beat up, but in good working condition. I was naive enough to think I'd be able to knock it out no problem in an hour or two. Well, I did manage to get it to work after testing and tweaking every knob and switch and everything else for hours on end, and finally understand the basics of what to do and how it works. With just me, a mic, a bass, and a guitar, I was able to put a song together that doesn't sound half bad (considering).

My problem is this. I don't really understand where to go from here. I popped the tape in my stereo and it sounded horrible, distorted and slow. I learned a bit from looking around online, and now understand it records across the whole tape so not only can you only use one side, but you can't play it on a normal stereo or tape deck. Common knowledge I'm sure, but I'm going into this totally blind.

So what do I do? Am I limited to listening to the recordings on the actual machine? I did a bit of looking around on how to convert the cassettes into CD's but only heard things that equated to 'spend more money and use a computer'.. which is understandable. I'm willing to do that. I'd just really appreciate a little direction, because I feel like I may have jumped in a little over my head. What are my options? Easy and cheap is good, but I'm willing to listen to any advice.

A big thanks in advance to anyone who helps out. I'd really appreciate it.
 
Four track cassette recording

I used a Yamaha MT3X four-track cassette recorder for years until the digital/PC age swamped me and claimed me as a victim.

I don't look back with regret, even though I had fun with the four-track, specially in mastering the arcane art of multiple bouncing.

A four-track, as you note, uses tape in a different way. All four tracks run the same way, whereas on a conventional cassette, one pair of tracks is used in one direction, while the other is used in the other direction (which is why you can flip a normal cassette over). I'm not sure if I've explained that well. Oh well. Additionally, a lot of four-tracks run at double speed to improve the sound quality (which is why it sunds slow when you play it on a conventional cassette player). A conventional C90 cassette would give you 45 minutes each side. On my MT3X, because I can only use one side, a C90 gives only 22 minutes of recording time.

So . . . you have recorded a number of tracks and you want to be able to listen to it elsewhere, and not solely on the four-track?

A simple option is to mix down onto another cassette player, i.e. hook up the stereo mix output of the four track to the input of a cassette recorded, hit play on the first, record on the second, and mix the levels of your tracks as it is recording onto the second. This will result in you having a mixed version of your creation on a cassette that you can whip into the car or wherever.

You can also mix down onto a minidisk recorder, or onto your computer via its line in (cheap, and sometimes nasty). You can mix down onto anything that will accept a stereo input.

If you are aiming for better quality, then you have to start spending money, so we'll leave that discussion for later.
 
Thanks guys. I tried getting the owners manual from the site last night but either the site or my friends internet was messed up and it refused to work. So that's helpful.

And the stuff on mixing is exactly the kind of advice I was looking for, so thanks for that too. I just didn't realize there was another step, but that makes sense to me now. Can't wait to try it out.
 
It's fairly easy to transfer from tape to PC, you'll need an adapter cable (1/8" stereo to 2 RCA plugs, should be less than $10) to hook the 2 machines together. Use the stereo mix output on the tape deck, to the line in on your soundcard, don't use the mic in. If you don't have recording software there are several you can download for free, Google free recording software and you will find plenty to choose from. When recording from tape to PC watch the level meters, you do NOT want to "red line" anything or you wil get clipping which sounds awful. Once you transfer the music onto the PC you should be able to edit it a little (EQ, boost or whatever) to clean up the sound. Save it as a wav file then burn it to CD for listening on other playback systems.

To copy to cassette you will need another stereo tape deck which records. Use a set of RCA cables to conect from the line outs on the Fostex to the line ins (or aux ins) on the second deck and simply record. An occasional bounce into the red on the level meters is ok with most tape decks, just don't push it too much or you may get distortion.

Keep the tape heads clean and use the best tapes you can, Cr O2 tape is best but if you can't find it use high bias tape and you should be fine. If your machine has multiple speed settings, always use the highest (fastest) tape speed.

I hope some of this helps... happy recording.
 
All this has been really helpful. Last night I got the 2 RCA to 1/8th cable and we plugged it right into the mic input on my friends tape recorder. I know that's probably the most bare bones low quality way of doing it, but at least now we have a way to record music, level it out a little, and then listen to it on the go. So that's cool and a big first step.

I'm definitely thinking of trying the computer route. The only problem is that the computer I'm on right now is the only one that could handle something like that. My friends computer is junk, and is too far from the room we record in. So I'll have to work out the kinks on that later. I'm for sure going to do it eventually though.

Just throwing this out there to anyone who enjoys helping out with this kind of thing-

Our current setup is:

Fostex XR-7 4-track
Audix OM2 Dynamic Microphone
BC Rich Heritage Classic Mockingbird Bass (active eq)
Mid 60's Tysco Guitar
DigiTech RP90 Guitar Multi Effects Pedal

Let's say I had 200 dollars to add to that list. What would the best choice be? Is there something important I'm leaving out? Or would it be best spent upgrading something we already have? I've thought about vocal effects. A mic pre-amp maybe? I just don't really know where priorities lie when it comes to this kind of thing, and really what's good and what's not. As far as amps and such go I can take care of that on my own.. and we aren't worried about any sort of drum equipment right now, but I just listed everything that's actually hooked through the 4-track and would really like to know what I could do with 200ish bucks to improve. I'm wide open to suggestions.
 
All this has been really helpful. Last night I got the 2 RCA to 1/8th cable and we plugged it right into the mic input on my friends tape recorder. I know that's probably the most bare bones low quality way of doing it, but at least now we have a way to record music, level it out a little, and then listen to it on the go. So that's cool and a big first step.

I'm definitely thinking of trying the computer route. The only problem is that the computer I'm on right now is the only one that could handle something like that. My friends computer is junk, and is too far from the room we record in. So I'll have to work out the kinks on that later. I'm for sure going to do it eventually though.

Just throwing this out there to anyone who enjoys helping out with this kind of thing-

Our current setup is:

Fostex XR-7 4-track
Audix OM2 Dynamic Microphone
BC Rich Heritage Classic Mockingbird Bass (active eq)
Mid 60's Tysco Guitar
DigiTech RP90 Guitar Multi Effects Pedal

Let's say I had 200 dollars to add to that list. What would the best choice be? Is there something important I'm leaving out? Or would it be best spent upgrading something we already have? I've thought about vocal effects. A mic pre-amp maybe? I just don't really know where priorities lie when it comes to this kind of thing, and really what's good and what's not. As far as amps and such go I can take care of that on my own.. and we aren't worried about any sort of drum equipment right now, but I just listed everything that's actually hooked through the 4-track and would really like to know what I could do with 200ish bucks to improve. I'm wide open to suggestions.
Better mics, and an amp. Get rid of that Digitech guitar processor. You are going to find that once you start recording that your guitar tracks are going to be full of noise you can't get rid of or figure out where it came from; that's where it will be coming from. Those pedals are nice for a live setup to give you quick access to different tones and effects, but they are really noisy to try and record with.

Plus it's a never ending battle of DI versus mic'ing an amp. Most agree, mic'ing an amp is a far superior sound, and much easier to mix. DI is too "in your face".

And you'll find yourself posting threads asking how to fix it... It's a viscious cycle.
 
Yo,... Alan of 342ness. ;)

I'm an experienced user who's been prolific in some years and then slowed down production quite a bit other years.

Right out of the box, I'd spent 24/7 in recording cover tunes and e'thing else on 4-track, from the years 82~87. Then moved and got into live-to-stereo recording and out of multitrack recording, per se, 'bout 88~theNineties, give or take a few multitrack productions here and there over the years. y2K I picked it up again, and popped off a new cut about every month, for a while there. 1n 2001 I got traumatized and manic and did an entire album's worth of Ramones covers on 4-track, 28 songs in 7 weeks. Slowed down again 02~06. Picked up the pace a bit again in 07 by recording 'bout 6 cuts. 08 only one cut so far and as yet TBD, maybe something new soon. If I could pop one tune out about every month or two, I'd be happy. Tho' I'm a diehard recording enthusiast, I have some creative blocks sometimes, but that's probably another post. What's this mean? Nothing, really. Heh.

What I think I mean is,... I don't remember how long it took me to figure out the 244 originally, (not long at all), but production time always varies, no matter if you're a rank newbie or old hand at it. Currently, if I have a really strong idea I could bang out a pretty good 4-track number in one day. 8-tracks might take a few days or a week. Tracks 16 and above, N/A~TBD.

The last 4-track number I did was done in appx 8 hours of tracking and mixing, inclusive. 4-tracks/8-hours, but not by formula,... by doing lots of retakes on tracks, some punches and being painstakingly picky about the remix, several times over.

One 4-track wunder in 1 day is a good accomplishment for me, but it's only when I'm inspired. 8-tracks are more "highly considered" (produced or planned out), but sometimes 8-track jamz can be banged out in one day or night, too. That's as a soloist, giving those estimates. Live band stuff is a whole other ballgame in production and/or time spent. There's no single approach to recording, of course, and there's no saying recording a band can't be as fast or faster,... (or a slower process), but that's situational-dependent. A solo artist working alone is a more consise thing, IMO.

You'd blow your mind to get a whiff of how many and how technical my track-bounces were! I learned the ropes about track-bouncing early on, and now I usually hedge against it altogether, however I feel my use of subtle track bounces if necessary is quite "patent" and easy for me, & soundz good too for the most part,... eh,... is virtually transparent. (Hint: cause I use moderation). Some of the heavy reduction bounces I did in the early 80s on my 4-track were heinous and yet brilliant too, for their time. You gotta love the ol' Radio Shack reverb, too, but that's another post.

I'm sorry if this post was not technically helpful. Not that you wanted to hear how or when I produced, but I just want to point out that all production time varies, from end to end, and it always will, because for no matter how much things stay the same, some things change, as do your recording chopz and skillz as you mix your recordz and learn the ropez.

Sorry there are no real tips here. 4-tracking is still great in my book. I think I'll do some now!:eek:;)

Best of luck and cheers,...
/DA
 
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Surprisingly enough between the time I made my last post and this one, the money was already spent by my guitarist. 100 bucks and a used Playstation2 for a BC Rich Beast. Maybe not the exact choice I would have made, but I think overall for the kind of music we play it's going to work out a lot better than a 40 year old hollow body. Don't get me wrong it's a cool guitar, but it stands out a bit when you're doing Misfits covers.

The basic stuff we layed down the other night did sound a little raw and distorted (except the vocals) even after playing with the mix trying to correct it. I'm glad clipping was mentioned because that's one of those things I didn't really know existed. I'm sure the pedal has a lot to do with it too, and the low quality of the way we're mixing down.. but still. Every little bit of info helps.

In an hour or so I'm getting back to it, so I'll keep everything in mind and do some more experimenting. If anybody has some stuff to add though, I really do appreciate the advice.. both in actual recording, and in gear. Like a mic pre-amp. Do I need one? I don't even know what a direct box is, or a bass compressor. It just seems like there's a ton of stuff out there, and no clear instruction on what to do with it.
 
Yo, Dude.

Dude, yeah, rock on.

E'thing you go into this field of interest with that you at first take for granted, like good sound quality, ease of use and speedy production times, all take time to learn the techniques of good, useful and esthetic recording, thereof.

There is no single answer, and there is a ton of varied gear out there and an entire e'universe of posts out there, yet there's still no absolute truth or certain correct way of doing things in recording. Not even, dare I say, "best" way, 'cause a lot of esthetic sound quality is subjective and not objective or technical, per se, tho' technical things play directly into esthetic value. There's some paradox, so not to go on and just confuse the point.

Is an external preamp a good thing? Yes. No. I don't know. Gear in general is neither good nor bad inherently, but most people like it.

Can it be used with your deck? I can't spec the XR-7 on the spot from memory, but usually there was a "Stereo Aux L/R" input on these midline models, which enabled you to connect external sources on RCA jacks at -10dbV line level, while bypassing the preamps and mixer section.

Then there's perhaps the technique of plugging it into your XR-7 thru any available "Line Input" on the mixer top panel/channel strip, but I'm not technically sure if your XR-7 has actual line input channel strips.

Beyond that, there's plugging the external preamp into your onboard Mic/Line preamp which these units have (gain/trim turned down to LINE/minimum), tho' that's redundant and not really bypassing the onboard pre's at all. No doubt it makes some people crazy to consider this as a sound application of technique [heh: pun], which it's not in the purist's sense. I just think it's redundant and not necessary, or at worst case is a burnout hazard on the input. The ol' Tascam OL LEDs were really a good feature for driving the Portastudio's onboard preamps just right. The other level setting method (non-OL LED) is a little backward and iffy, but functional method, (consult manual).:eek::)

Would an external preamp be a good unit to have around and use on your XR-7 and your current work, or would it be "better"? IN general I'd hedge against saying that, as it not only depends on the quality of the onboard pre's, but it also hinges a lot on application. I'm of the OPINION that an external preamp is not needed for sound quality issues ON PORTASTUDIOS, porta-clones or any recording system with a proper mixer with decent pre's, especially at first, 'cept for phantom power and even that's not gospel, 'cause there are battery operated condeser mics and simple phantom boxes/less preamp. Bottom line is I feel very strongly that the new user should learn how to develop the best sound on the recording device in native mode, with no ups or extras on gear right out of the box. There's just so much learning to do about the finer points of capturing a good recording, that you really need to learn the ropes and see if you can push the limits of your gear with your production skillz, not with the gear pushing your capability.

There's a whole "faddability" factor when it comes to the notion of external pre's,... & a whole cult built behind mics and pre's,... (if you will pardon the expression),... and you heard it here first! A preamp is a preamp, and they span the quality spectrum, but they all do one thing,... amplify! Still, one might find an extra preamp or two handy around the studio, tho' it's not a magic bullet of sound quality. I can see a few different ways you might wanna go for experimentation's sake. Anyway, those 4-trackers with 2 preamps and 2 line inputs kinda beg the issue of having the external pre,... so for anything like the Tascam Porta 07 it would be a good idea to have like a dual mic preamp. There's nothing wrong with battery powered condenser mics, btw. They work fine. Dynamics are fine in my book too, as I feel I can get a satisfactory (good) sound out of any properly working mic, just by ear with good placement & a good mixer strip EQ. Never mind that. ;):eek: I think you can too.

I have nothing else to add, nor do I necessarily think my opinions are especially helpful. Sorry for the wordiness, but I love to talk about production to newbies about 4-tracks, in general. I still love 4-trackin' and you'll always have an advocate in me. The best Portastudios can do lotz if you get the chopz. With Fostex y'kinda had second best and "me too" cheapie clones, but they were functional and had some decent models here & there,... in analog porta-clonez.

I have only one more thing to add; maybe helpful:

4-track Cassette Demo (424mkIII & single mic)
 

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Don't toss out that old Tiesco. They are great for slide work. Some of them came out with pretty hot pick ups which work really great for slide. Plus they are becoming collectible, this may just be a fad but I guess the "retro" aspect gives them appeal to some people.
Meanwhile...
Cruise a few pawn shops and look for a couple of decent mics, used mics are usually still in good working condition. Something like a Shure 57 will usually sell for $50 or less and should be well worth the investment.
I wouldn't worry too much about a mic preamp for the Fostex (you'll need one if you decide to record digital though) unless your vocals need a boost or you need phantom power. I would suggest that you not use the multi efx pedal, most are pretty noisy for recording.
You also need to think about your "live room." Even a little room treatment will improve your overall sound and make recording much easier. Treatment doesn't have to be fancy, but a couple of bass traps and an absorber panel or two will help a lot.
I mostly record digital (I like the ease of editing) but my old Yamaha MT 120 four track still gets used at least a couple of times a week. Digital is very likely the way of the future but as long as I can get tapes I'll use my 4 track as long as it still works, it's fun, easy and a lot more portable than my PC.
 
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