+4 DB Balanced lines:Choking me to death

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CyanJaguar

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hi people,

I have a problem with running balanced or unbalanced. WHen I push the button on my delta 1010 to make it run unbalanced, it's ok but noisy. WHen I select +4 db balanced though, it a full fifteen db quiter at idle(got my mind on a camaro and a camaro on my mind).

Anyhow, its 15db quiter -and so I my vocals or instrumentals. Is this "natural electronics behaviour? (I havent' found out how to use those smileys).

Anyhow, the main problem arises when I start getting my preamp to zero db but my soundcard is recording -15 db. Of course, when I switch back to unbalanced, my software also gets to zero, but I have all that noise.

Please, what can I do? I know that my preamp is balanced and my soundcard is balanced so what could be wrong.
 
You seem to be operating under the common misconception that balanced lines and +4 gain are interchangeable terms - they are not.

Balanced/unbalanced lines are a wiring configuration, whereas +4DbU/-10DbV refer to a signal level gain structure.

To fix your problem, you need to determine first at what gain structure your equipment is operating under - then set your outboard gear to that accordingly.

Whether to run balanced lines or not is not relevant to your signal levels.

Bruce Valeriani
Blue Bear Sound
 
hi Bvaleria,

Ok, YOu lost me there. COuld you please explain a little bit more? I thought they meant the same thing cos my delta 1010 manual says when you push the button to the out position, it runs balanced and at +4db, but my joemeek vc6q only says that it runs balanced.

What is wrong here?

thanks
 
CyanJaguar - I assume you are talking about the buttons next to each of the 8 input and output ports on the back of the Delta 1010 breakout box. If so, these buttons are NOT for changing between balanced or unbalanced sources. The soundcard will accept either balanced cables OR unbalanced cables WITHOUT changing any switches.

Rather, these buttons on your breakout box are for switching between a line in source coming from "professional equipment" (e.g. a preamp) vs. one coming from "consumer equipment" (e.g. a cassette deck).

Professional audio equipment provides a stronger (+4db) line signal than does consumer equipment (-10db). You do not have a choice as to where you set the buttons on your soundcard - you MUST set them to match whatever source you are plugging into the corresponding port on your soundcard. If the input source is a preamp or mixer - you have to set it at +4db. If the source is a consumer CD player or cassette deck - you have to set it at -10db.

This is why you are having a problem. You can not change between these settings using the same input source. Sounds like you are using a preamp, so you should set it at +4db.

Also, you should use the software mixer that came with your Delta 1010 to set the gain on your preamp. While looking at the software meters and having someone sing or play into your mic(s), adjust your output gain on the preamp until the meters peak at just under 0db.

Hope this helps.
 
thanks Dachay2tnr,

The problem is, I always use the mixer with the delta 1010, and when I set it to +4db by pushing the button, then the meter will not get to zero unless I get some seroius clipping on my joemeek vc6q.

I know that the joemeek suports balanced and unbalanced but now I have to go check if its gain structure, as bvaleria pointed out, is +4 or -10

If it is -10, then I have an answer, but if it is +4 then its back to square one.


Thanks again
 
I would be surprised if the signal is not +4db. Most professional type equipment is +4db.

What's the rest of your setup look like?
 
To Clear Things Up

Just because it's a preamp or mixer doesn't necessarily mean it outputs +4dBu. Also, different outputs on the same mixer may have different output interface levels.

The following makes it sound like the pre is outputting -10 dBv:

"The problem is, I always use the mixer with the delta 1010, and when I set it to +4db by pushing the button, then the meter will not get to zero unless I get some seroius clipping on my joemeek vc6q."

But yes, "What's the rest of your setup look like?"
 
my setup

I am going from my akg c414 into the joemeek vc6q, into the delta 1010, into vegas pro. Very simple, very powerful

I am using balanced cabling from the mic to the pre, but I don't know what I am using from the meek to the delta. I picked up the only type of cable the store had.

By the way cheap, er, inexpensive cable for now.
 
Ahhh Haaaa!!! Maybe?

I checked-out th efeatures of the VC6Q and saw it has a volume output control. What you'll need to do is use that knob to boost the output of the VC6Q to interface with the +4dBu input.
 
thanks, re

I was just about to tell you guys that I read the manual and it did not mention +4db anywhere, but turning the output to +4db should solve it?
I will try that as soon as I get home.

I am hoping that I don't have to start another thread for this: noise.

delta 1010 only: I can't see any activity in the software meter.

joemeek on without mic, output @zero: -90 db@+4 -75db@-10
with phantom on, and mic set at zero ,preamp all the way down, I get -84 @+4 and -70 @-10

My question goeth thus? are these unnacceptable noise levels? What can I do to get the noise down to what would be acceptable.

THanks in advance y'all.
 
hey c7sus,

when I say that I don't see any activity in the meters, it means that the noise floor is below what the meters would show when I only have the 1010 on with nothing plugged in.

I actually don't use the 1010 meters. they don't show below -40db . I use the vegas pro meters which go to -90 db

I think the floor on the delta 1010 is like -109 db

I have everything setup right I believe, and I think the meters are accurate cause when I set them to peak on zero, and save the result as a wave file, then that file peaks on zero in Siren, which is a software jukebox.
 
Here is something to think about...

If you are getting a 75db sound to noise ratio throughout your signal path, you are doing much better then the Beetles did!

You are doing better the Pink Floyd did.

You are doing about as good as anybody does!

From there, we are talking about getting 75db of "good" sound.

Good luck.....:)

Ed
 
wow

I did not even know. Thank God.

I must say though that I don't always get -75db signal to noise ratio. my vocals usually stay at -12 -6 and only hit zero sometimes, but I can fix that by raising the output on the preamp without raising noise by more than 3-4 db.

I did not know till recently that a -6db increase in sound levels is actually DOUBLE the sound level. hmm

thanks guys.
 
A clarification...

s/n ratio and dynamic range are two different babies here.

s/n ratio is the difference between the noise floor and the hottest level that is possible.

dynamic range is the total amount of sound tha tis possible on the unit.

This is why there is a difference.

Noise generated by equipment is not broadband noise, meaning it doesn't cover the whole frequency spectrum. Often, this noise is more or less in a limited frequency range. So, it is creating noise, but you can still of course have recorded material that is BELOW the noise floor that is audible to the ear because the recorded material is pontentially not in the same frequency range as the noise, thus, not covered up by the noise.

This stuff gets involved, and I don't have the technical background to explain it well enough. But, it is a fact.

But like I said, if you have a 75db s/n ratio at your converters input with the mic open, you are doing very well indeed. Not too much instrumentation needs more then that to capture it's whole dynamic range without compression. Thus, you have the potential of having virtually noise free recordings.

Ed
 
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