3-to-1, x-y mic technics; BMP and delay formulas

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Proveras

I like my recordings.
Hello,
I am looking for information about technics like 3-to-1, x-y, MS or others to know them better and some formulas too.

I allready see a post of someone about a delay formula in a thread about 3 weaks ago and I can't find it.

if you know a place (internet) where I can find some information about this, please let me know...
If you want to share some formulas, like delay/ms = x bmp, or something like that please write them too.

thanx.

(very important thing for mic placement -- phase)
 
60,000/bpm = delay time per beat in milisecs.
Is that what your looking for?
 
This too?
If you have a mic 1 foot from a source, there shouldnt be another mic closer then 3 feet to that first mic.
 
YES!
thats what I am looking for, all that kind of info.
I understand it, but I am looking for some more "deep" info about all this tachnics...

the one of the delay is one of the fornulas I am looking for, thanx.

do you know where I can find a lot of documents to read and study in the internet?
I want to knouw them better and know the "whys".

thanx again.
 
thanx again Shailat!
thats exactly what I am looking for...

this kind of info with some diagrams.

do you (anyone)know some more EDUCATIONAL pages?
 
Hi Shailat. Hey, there's something I've never understood - how do you explain stereo miking in terms of the 3 to 1 rule? It seems that if the capsules are real close to each other or symmetrically positioned in relation to the sound, the 3 to 1 rule doesn't apply, right? When does it stop being stereo miking, and when does the 3 to 1 rule start to apply?
 
Here are some comments on the 3-to-1 rule and its relation to stereo miking. Hope this stuff is helpful...

Suppose you're recording a jazz trio in mono for TV broadcast.
For simplicity, we'll say there's one mic on the drum set, one on
the piano, and one on the bass.

The drums sound funny -- sort of filtered. What's happening?
The piano mic is picking up the drums at a distance. The
drum mic is picking up the drums up close. So there are two drum
signals in the mix. One is direct and one is delayed.

When you combine a signal with its delayed replica at equal
levels, certain frequencies cancel out, depending on the delay.
There appears a row of notches in the frequency response where
the sounds cancel. This is called a comb filter effect, because
the frequency response looks like the teeth of a comb.

In general, if two microphones pick up the same sound source at
different distances, and their signals are fed to the same
channel, this might cause phase cancellations. These are peaks
and dips in the frequency response caused by some frequencies
combining out of phase. The result is a colored, filtered tone
quality. It sounds like mild flanging.

If you are recording in stereo, and don't expect the recording to be heard in mono, then the 3-to-1 rule doesn't matter. The phase cancellations don't occur in stereo; just in mono. In fact, the phase differences create the stereo imaging in near-coincident and spaced-pair stereo mic techniques.

To reduce phase cancellations between two mics, follow the 3 to 1
rule: The distance between mics should be at least three times
the mic-to-source distance. For example, if two mics are each 1
foot from their sound sources, the mics should be at least 3 feet
apart to prevent phase cancellations.

How was the 3:1 rule determined? It started with the following
phenomenon:

When you add a signal to its delayed replica at equal levels, and mixed to the same channel, you
get severe comb filtering with deep notches. But when you mix
direct and delayed signals at different levels, you get less deep
notches.

Specifically, if the delayed signal is 9 dB less than the direct
signal, the comb-filter notches are only +/- 1 dB, so for all
practical purposes they are inaudible.

How do we make sure that the delayed signal, picked up by a
distant mic, is at least 9 dB below the direct signal picked up
by the closer mic? Put the distant mic at least 3 times farther
from the source than the close mic is. Due to the inverse square
law, the level drops about 9.5 dB when the distance to the source
is increased 3 times.

So the 3:1 rule ensures that the level at the distant mic will be
down at least 9 dB, so the mixed signals will have comb filtering
of +/- 1 dB or less.

A ratio of 4:1 or more is even better. The 3:1 ratio is the
minimum to avoid audible comb-filter effects.

Suppose you have a close mic and a distant mic. The distant mic
is either used for reverb pickup, or to pick up another
instrument. You just set its gain to get a normal recording
level for that mic's sound source.

Suppose the close mic is picking up a loud piano, and the distant
mic is picking up a quiet acoustic guitar. You've placed the
mics following the 3:1 rule. But you have to turn up the
guitar-mic gain a lot because the guitar is so quiet. If so, you
might negate the 9 dB separation. That is, the piano signal in
the guitar track might be less than 9 dB below the piano signal
in the piano track, because the guitar-mic's gain is so high.

So there's more to it than just the 3:1 placement. The idea is
to get at least 9 dB difference between track levels for the same
instrument. You want at least 9 dB of separation, not exactly 9
dB of separation.

Here are some ways to increase separation:

*Mike close.
*Spread instruments farther apart.
*Put a gobo between them.
*Use directional mics, and aim the null of each mic's polar
pattern at the other mic.
*Don't use two mics when one will do the job. For example, use
just one mic on a lectern. If you must use two mics mixed to the
same channel, place them so their grilles touch.
*Record in a deader room. This reduces reflections into the
front of each mic, which can degrade separation.
*Use a pickup on the guitar instead of a mic.

If the close and distant mics are two cardioids aiming in
opposite directions, the mics can be closer than 3:1 and still
get enough separation.
 
Forgot to mention... an advantage of XY (coincident-pair) stereo miking is that it is mono-compatible; the tone quality is the same in mono or stereo. That's because the two mic diaphragms are aligned vertically so there is no time or phase difference between channels. No phase difference = no phase cancellations in mono.

Inside a mid-side (MS) stereo mic, the two mic capsules are coincident, so an MS mic produces mono-compatible signals.
 
woow!

GREAT, GREAT info!!!!
thanx a lot Bruce Bartlett!

nobody can say it better.
 
what about the x-y and m-s?
can you explain me something more deep about them?

What I'm trying to do is mic the drums in my little sound proof room. the room is fine, no reverbs, totally death, but it is small about 2.5 * 2.5 * 3 mts

with very close mic, I will mic bass drum bus 1, snare 2, two mics for cymbals 3, and 3 hypercardio mics for TOMS in bus 4...
and each bus of the mixer to the 4 ins of the soundcard (delta 44) and I am trying to avoid some weird fx in the sound by the mics.

for the stereo image I will use the pan softwares in toms and cymbals.

what do you think about it? thank you for the replys.


(I need the info for live sound too)
 
Bruce Bartlett said:

The phase cancellations don't occur in stereo; just in mono. In fact, the phase differences create the stereo imaging in near-coincident and spaced-pair stereo mic techniques.[/i]


Bruce,
Welcome aboard

Would you agree with me that In stereo there still is a bit of phase cancelation. When you combine sounds even hearing it from speakers you'll have Phase cance. How ever a bit of it can be a good thing. It adds a bit of richness to the sound.
The only way to avoid it totaly would be to use headphones.

Provares - Do you mean overheads when you say mic for cymbals.
If you like the sound of the drums then check it out in mono to look for phase problems. If you have a phase switch on your mixer then use it in case of a problem.






[Edited by Shailat on 08-21-2000 at 13:44]
 
yes, I mean overheads, but using the 16am from shure,
the idea is take just the cymbals and hit-hat frequencys, not all the kit.

this way I will work with the cymbals alone.
thats why I say cymbals not overhead.

I will use the cymbals very high and the mics in 90º ( ¬ )or pointing to the ceiling ( L , / ) and the mics of the toms are hypers and in very close micing.

I am not expecting a great sound with all the drum kit,
what I want is take good sound of every part of the kit and every mic alone, and work in 4 tracks separetaly and then mix:

1 bass drum atm25
2 snare sm57
3 toms samson r11 * 3
4 cymbals (overheads) shure 16am * 2

so, I need to learn very good the 3-1 and xy, etc. micing technics.

for the stereo image, I will use the PAN softwares (L to R)
in the tracks of toms and overheads.

any suggestions?

[Edited by Proveras on 08-21-2000 at 15:54]
 
If this will not work, I will not buy the mixer I want with the 4 subgroups and the delta with 4 ins.

I prefer better mics to get good sound of all the drum kit and bring the stereo image already to the line in of an another sound card, or the echo.... uh? 2 ins, 8 outs.
 
I've been hearing about the 3 to 1 rule...

...for a long time, but now I understand what it's all about. Should call it the 9 db rule instead. Also, I've been asking people if there's any advantage in recording stereo, and nobody's mentioned the lack of phase cancellation before. I mic acoustic guitar and voice simultaneously, so there's always a bit of mild phasing, even with the mics up close to sound source. So it sounds like I should try recording my tracks in stereo. The only danger is that the music couldn't then be played on TV, right? But unless I get this phasing sorted out, there's not much danger of my music being played anywhere.

Thanks, Bruce. That answer goes in the book. I'm entertained by your 'newbie' status. Stick around - you'll outgrow it eventually. :D
 
Thanks for your kind comments!

You asked for more detail about XY and MS. XY uses two directional mics mounted with diaphragms aligned vertically and angled apart. "Directional" means cardioid, supercardioid, hypercardioid, or bidirectional. The angle between mics can be anywhere between 90 and 180 degrees. The wider the angle, the greater the stereo spread or width between far-left and far-right images.

If you mount two cardioids in XY, with a 90 degree angle between them (+/- 45 deg. right and left of center), the stereo spread is narrow. It does not extend all the way between the left and right speakers, unless the sound source surrounds the mic pair in a semicircle.

Sound from straight ahead approaches the mics at 45 degrees off axis, so there is little off-axis coloration of the tone quality.

If you angle the mics farther apart, say 135 degrees, the stereo spread is wider and more accurate. But sounds from straight ahead are hitting the mics 67 degrees off axis, so you probably will get some off-axis coloration -- usually some high frequency rolloff. You can partly compensate for this with a HF boost in the EQ (but only for stuff in the center).

MS or mid-side uses a forward-aiming mic of any pattern (cardioid being most typical) and a side-aiming mic that is bidirectional. When you add these two patterns, you get the left-channel signal. When you difference them (add them in opposite polarity), you get the right-channel signal.

By varying the mid-to-side ratio, you vary the stereo spread or stage width. If M and S are equal, you get something like two supercardioids aiming about 45 deg. left and right. (I have not worked out the exact angle here).

You can vary the M/S ratio during recording or playback, which is a great way to adjust the stereo spread after recording, without having to physically move the mics.

Re drum miking, I don't see a problem with your drum miking except that I wouldn't aim the cymbal mics at the ceiling, unless it sounded cool!

As for a guitarist/singer, I've had luck with miking the singer up close with a cardioid mic with a foam pop filter. The mic aims up at the singer so that its "dead" rear null aims toward the guitar. The guitar is miked with a mini omni condenser mic taped to the guitar body, halfway between the sound hole and bridge, about 1/2 inch from the low-E string. It picks up very little voice. You could use a quality pickup instead, but nothing sounds as real as a mic.

You could use two figure-8 (bidirectional) mics, with the side null of the vocal mic aiming at the guitar, and the side null of the guitar mic aiming at the voice. This is the Blumlein method: two coincident bidirectional mics angled 90 degrees apart.

Of course, you could record the guitar first, then overdub the vocal -- no phase cancellations that way! But some musicians can't perform like that. Anyone else have some ideas on miking a singer/guitarist? We need a new thread.

About hearing phase cancellations from stereo speakers... at each ear, the right speaker has phase cancellations with the left speaker, because of the different sound-travel paths. This creates a slight dip in the response around 2 or 3 kHz, but it's hard to hear.

Hope all this helps...

[Edited by Bruce Bartlett on 08-22-2000 at 02:30]
 
excuse me sir...

... your are not a newbie. :cool:

nice http homepage!

thank you.
 
Proveras,
In princeble it should work, but good mics are essentianl for getting a good sound. Do some trial and error placments. In general the more seperation of the kit the more you can tweak the drims but be carefull not to make them sound to sterile.
Since you have a small room and a dead one as you claim then IMHO Ambiance is not as much of a factor as it would be in a bigger room. Ambiance is a important part of the sound with drums and help them sound more natural.
I would try to lower the cymbals and try to capture more of the kit.
 
thanx for the tip Shailat.

what do you preffer?

1. Get already the stereo image of all the drums
subgroups and ins: 1 kick 2 snare 3 left 4 rigt
(triangular technic with a mic in the snare)

or

2. Work with different tracks for each part of the kit
subgroups and ins: 1 kick 2 snare 3 toms 4 cymbals


the question is for mic placement, sell some mics and buy another ones, etc...

thanx again.
 
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