JimmyS1969
MOODerator
I am surprised he isn't banned already. I suppose being an ass is not a violation of TOS. I got your back when you throw the hammer tho.
I am surprised he isn't banned already. I suppose being an ass is not a violation of TOS. I got your back when you throw the hammer tho.
JimmyS1969
MOODerator
I love how "Monty" has intentionally disabled comments on his YT vids....
Would you want 500 pages of comments on your page that contradicted the bible? lol!
Chili
Site Moderator
Well, that's where judgment calls come in. The guy isn't contributing anything positive to the community. He just wants to push hot topic buttons then call people names. We can do without him.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Sigh.
So says somebody who rigs tests by recording different sources for later comparison, converts them to very low grade MP3 for listening, and records at -40dB to ensure he can hear a difference.
Apologies if I choose to listen a bit more to a guy who writes books, organises seminars for the AES and has an excellent reputation with professionals in the industry, That he chooses to come to HR and share his knowledge is a good thing, not something to deride.
I hope you enjoy your eventual ban for trolling!
JimmyS1969
MOODerator
What the hell is wrong with you Michael? You come here and pretend to be all knowing and disrespect the members of this site that spend their time helping others.
I have a few choice words for guys like you. I would rather just see you go hang out somewhere else. Somewhere where your bad attitude is accepted. This is not the place *******.
I have a few choice words for guys like you. I would rather just see you go hang out somewhere else. Somewhere where your bad attitude is accepted. This is not the place *******.
Chili
Site Moderator
Sorry Jimmy, I deleted some of the posts that weren't relevant to the topic.
JimmyS1969
MOODerator
No worries, one more lip out of that guy and I am throwing the hammer myself. Where do guys like that come from? I don't get it man...
B
Beck
Guest
ARRRGH! Not this again! With all due respect this 13-bit thing regarding analog must die a quick death before the entire amateur music community is contaminated by yet another baseless urban legend. Trust me, this is what happens when people are finding it more and more difficult to look at anything in non-digital terms because they don't know any better.
1) Signal-to-noise ratio alone is not bit depth, and there is no easy comparison between analog and digital in this regard.
2) With noise reduction of various types, analog tape, even many cassette-based systems can meet or exceed the practical signal-to-noise ratio of 16-bit and even 20-bit digital devices. The theoretical S/N ratios of given bit-depths do not occur in real digital devices.
3) There are many other benefits to higher bit-depth, not the least of which is more effective error correction, which reduces the number of unrecoverable errors in a digital sample.
Chili
Site Moderator
JimmyS1969
MOODerator
Aw man, who banned him? I wanted to see one more outburst of idiot. 
From an earlier post he made, I am sure we will see him back within a day or so.
From an earlier post he made, I am sure we will see him back within a day or so.
CoolCat
Well-known member
yeah for sure, I was kind of waiting for some sarcasm or joke, trying to be open...but it was just insults and more of that pointless insulting obsession, bevis and butthead stuff?
Im so old at times and witnessed the changing of humor and tv, I often accept a lot more off handed remarks that are now more common and meaningless, like er...Bevis and Butthead humor.... I don't know how to partake in it, but obviously many find it great fun.
its like a game of insulting, Bevis usually wins....I think..
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
True. A signal to noise RATIO involves two numbers...the level of absolute noise on a recording and the level of the recorded signal. Therefore, if (on a digital system) if you record at 18dB(FS) on a 16 bit system with a theoretical noise floor of -96dB(FS) then your S/N ratio is about 76dB. However, if you push your recording to 0dB(FS) (bad idea) the S/N can indeed be 96dB...except for the inevitable clipping of course). Therefore you're right to say that there's no direct correlation between bit depth and S/N...but there certainly IS one between the specified noise floors that a digital system or a tape based system can achieve.
The BEST cassette based systems using Type IV cassettes but no noise reduction can achieve a S/N of UP TO about 60 or 61dB. However, just like the digital world this depends on using all your headroom--lower levels result in a lower S/N ratio.
You are correct that noise reduction systems improve the S/N of tape based systems. Dolby B gave a S/N improvement of around 10dB. Dolby C upped this to around 15dB and Dolby S (had it ever really caught on) claimed an improvement of about 10dB at low frequencies and 24dB at higher frequencies.
However, this is not without drawbacks. Any system using pre-emphasis and de-emphasis can't be absolutely perfect in it's filtering and slight changes in the frequency response will occur. These are admittedly slight--Ray Dolby did a good job--but we also talk endlessly about subtle changes in the digital domain so it's fair game to do the same with analogue.
I do agree that theoretical noise floors or S/N ratios are rarely achieved in a digital system. Other things in the chain including mic noise and pre amp noise come into it. At 16 bit, the chain can often just about keep up with the bit depth but at 24 bit the digital noise floor never really comes into the equation (unless you record at -40 like a now-banned poster was trying!). All these things affect analogue too, of course, but the mics and pre amps are generally enough better than the tape recording that their effect is less significant.
Er, where are you using error correction in the production process though? A standard wave file doesn't include any spare bits for FEC (nor should it have to) and any interface/DAW/HDD combination that can't reproduce everything bit for bit has a problem. Typically, error correction only comes into it with CD playback or ripping.
Or are you referring to something else?
Anyway, my main point is that, while you are correct that saying tape based systems are like a 13 bit digital system is over-simplified, it's not SO far off the truth as to be completely useless. However, simply worrying about noise is a modern thing. I don't know how old you are but anybody who watched TV back in the 60s and 70s tended to see programmes recorded on Ampex or RCA 2 inch Quad head VTRs. Know what the S/N of these beasts was before things like Dolby started coming into it? About 48dB!
MrWrenchey
Member
It's because things like this thread end up coming out of it with "in my experience" comments and whatnot. Then everyone starts flinging how many years they've been working and their "experience" and it turns into a war, and Monty's all, "dude, I'm just giving you guys science facts."
Except on YouTube the fights get even worse than it gets on here. xD
Except on YouTube the fights get even worse than it gets on here. xD
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
That's why I chuckled at the "Monty" video.
Basically, since he "made a video", and then posted on You Tube/Interent...everything he says in the videos therefore MUST be true...and so he feels there's no point in taking any comments, so he disables them.
.
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Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
I'm glad Miro has confirmed you can't lie on the Internet.
I was getting a bit worried about that $56 million the ex politician in Nigeria is supposed to be sending me but I'm a lot more confident now.
I was getting a bit worried about that $56 million the ex politician in Nigeria is supposed to be sending me but I'm a lot more confident now.
MrWrenchey
Member
He's sending that to you too!? He must have so much to offer!
Haha, I don't believe that's true at all, Miro. I just think he probably didn't want all comments section to look like what HR looks like half the time. xD
Of course, who knows, you may be spot on and the guy thinks he's a genius. Who knows.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Just to put it in perspective....
There was a guy on the forums (not HR) about 10 years ago who made some very scientific statements, tests and conclusions about digital sampling....that went against an established norm. He even wrote a book about it and for a couple of years everyone was turning to him as the new "messiah" for his views.
He wasn't a nut, and he certainly had a solid understanding of electronics and audio technology...so his views seemed just that much more correct and carried weight.
No one's heard from him since.............................he just faded into Internet history and stopped posting on all the forums he regularly posted.
Maybe he just got hit by a bus....who knows.
There was a guy on the forums (not HR) about 10 years ago who made some very scientific statements, tests and conclusions about digital sampling....that went against an established norm. He even wrote a book about it and for a couple of years everyone was turning to him as the new "messiah" for his views.
He wasn't a nut, and he certainly had a solid understanding of electronics and audio technology...so his views seemed just that much more correct and carried weight.
No one's heard from him since.............................he just faded into Internet history and stopped posting on all the forums he regularly posted.
Maybe he just got hit by a bus....who knows.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Was his name Nyquist?
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
No....but it began with an "N".....I'll leave it at that.
Ethan Winer
Acoustics Expert
Aw geez, I'm late to the party yet again and missed all the fun.
I'll just add my standard comment that you can always someone is full of it when they resort to insults.
--Ethan
I'll just add my standard comment that you can always someone is full of it when they resort to insults.
--Ethan