2 mics/on 1-12" speaker

  • Thread starter Thread starter cellardweller
  • Start date Start date
cellardweller

cellardweller

New member
My last endeavor into making my recordings sound slightly better than crap, was the sm57/58 on my 4X12 cab, on different speakers but close enough to avoid phase difficulties.

It has since been recommended to me to try a single 12.

Has anybody tried close micing a single 12 with two mics?

(logistics aside) I was going to try having one just off of the cone, the other a little further to the center of the cone....

It's nice to have the availability of the 2nd track, but what are the chances of both tracks being usable?

*edit* I've tried the room mic 5-8 feet out (spb1). I suspect the reflections and/or cancellation(damn my shi**y little room!), or the ol' "wrong tool for the job" negatively affected the outcome of that, because it sounded like arse!


*revelation edit*(thanks farside!) I suppose that my mackie's 15v phantom power could possibly have something to do with the less that stellar performance of the SPB1... crappy preamps aside... :(
 
Last edited:
try this sometime - depends on room. raise the cab a bit and face it into a corner. point one 57 slightly off axis at the corner facing the back of the cab. and crank. tell me if your happy !!
 
I used to do a mic near the center and a mic near the edge from time to time, so I could have the option to blend em. Haven't done that too much in a while though.

These days I usually just do a 57 wherever I think it sounds good, maybe even a ways back.... last time I mic'd an amp I combined that with a condenser a few feet back, aimed down toward the ground to pick up the reflections, as the direct sound was a bit too harsh, mainly due to the mic (mxl990) which just isn't the greatest thing for the task.

That was a fun jam.... made little booths out of these big green pads I have for sleeping on... not the egg crate foam stuff, thicker and more of a stuffed upholstered thing.

I dont think it actually did anything the way I used it, but it looked really neat, and that's always a plus, as it adds to the vibe and fun of the session.
 
15v Phantom Power? Yikes...that's not Phantom Power.

Anyways, the preamps on a Mackie console are kinda harsh but they're not that bad...as long as you're not using their inboard EQ (yuk).

Does your Mackie board have phase invert switches on each channel?

I'm trying to remember the Mackie boards I worked with 9 or more years ago and what features they have.

If not, a 3:1 rule is important for mic placement with two or more mics. Think of it in 3's...3 feet for every one foot....3 inches to every inch...etc.

I have the luxury or phase invert for every channel (during recording and mixing) and mics for different tones even without the "rule".

I've done plenty of great things with a 57 and 58 combo on one source speaker. I end up EQ'ing the heck out of one of the mics during mixdown as well as playing with the panning.

Okay, here's the BEST thing I EVER learned from working under a pro and I've never looked back:

"When setting up multiple mics make sure you have covered the highs, mids, and lows collectively."

That might mean having 3 source mics or reamping one of the 2 sources for a third track in order to fill up the frequencies. Don't rely on each mic to individually sound amazing, it the combination of sources, if positioned correctly and handling the right frequencies, will sound massive.

More mics means more headaches, sometimes, but once it sinks in and you try a few other tricks like maybe compressing one of the mics as an "effect" or a nice underlaying "control"

So many variables to the final presentation and there are no rules, only suggestions, and experimentations.

Good luck,
--Adam Lazlo
http://www.analogelectric.com
 
Yea, the phantom power (or lack of it) kinda struck me as a bad thing :D

It's not an actual board, it's a 808m PA head :( :o . No phase invert switches...

I am absolutely going to buy a dmp3 after the holidays. Santa duty has me strapped, I had to buy my son a drum set.

If not, a 3:1 rule is important for mic placement with two or more mics. Think of it in 3's...3 feet for every one foot....3 inches to every inch...etc.
Click to expand...

By this, do you mean for every one inch that the 1st mic is from the source, the second should be three times the distance? And if so, at what point is zero considered? If I have my 57 JAMMED against the speaker, nearly touching that is... not that I've done this, only curious.
 
cellardweller said:
Yea, the phantom power (or lack of it) kinda struck me as a bad thing :D

It's not an actual board, it's a 808m PA head :( :o . No phase invert switches...

I am absolutely going to buy a dmp3 after the holidays. Santa duty has me strapped, I had to buy my son a drum set.



By this, do you mean for every one inch that the 1st mic is from the source, the second should be three times the distance? And if so, at what point is zero considered? If I have my 57 JAMMED against the speaker, nearly touching that is... not that I've done this, only curious.
Click to expand...

Yup...best thing to start with is do the ol' thumb to pinky distance (from one mic to the other mic). That's a good start regarding the 3:1 ratio.

--Adam Lazlo

http://www.analogelectric.com
 
Please forgive my denseness, but could you please elaborate on the "thumb to pinky" thing? I've never heard this before, my naivette amazes me at times! :eek:

Thanks.
 
Three to six inches is a good start. Thumb to pinky, meaning the distance between your thumb and pinly.

The thing is you can't just pop a mic in that area and expect it to sound good.

Start by moving the amp around in the room and getting it to sound great there. Elevate, tilt, move away from walls or point it around the room. Then you can start with the amp settings, spend a lot of time getting a great sound without too much fuzz. Then you can get teh mic involved. Place it and record checking the recording at least twenty times before you even consider settling unless you happen to find a magic spot right away.

I have had interesting results with placing a mic at the rear of the cab inside the box and one in ront flipping the phase on the rear mic.
 
cellardweller said:
..By this, do you mean for every one inch that the 1st mic is from the source, the second should be three times the distance? And if so, at what point is zero considered? If I have my 57 JAMMED against the speaker, nearly touching that is... not that I've done this, only curious.
Click to expand...
Yeah, '3-to-1' A good question.
I couldn't get it to work here, so I tried it here. What the hell. :D
http://recforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/t/2905/6263/?SQ=9c496623b1768b2ea1daf9e6c867d58c
 
Hmm,


I shouldn't see why just a lone SM57 can't do the job. Typically when I was forced to use an SM57 for cab micing, it did the job with a little inboard EQing. Most of the time, I'd tend to roll off the high end and boost a little of the lows and mids. This prevents your guitars from sounding really thin.
 
LRosario-That will be good for future reference, but my mackies eq is so crappy that I usually just bypass it...

mixsit,
My sarcasm detector is in the shop, but I'm going to guess that there was a slight particulate in your last post.

Okay, I used the 3 to 1 "rule of thumb" for a beginning point, slap on my headphones... would I pan both mics center... what am I listening for as I move the mics around?

I know that this is just another one of those things I have to learn by experience, but can you give me some "rule of thumb" to start by?

Thanks.

*edit* My monitoring ability is nearly non-existant. I am flawed by my dependency of listening to every recording on 3-4 different car/home stereos(among other things). With my limited amount of skill and time, I want to be able to maximize the efficiency of this trial and error process. Thanx again.
 
Last edited:
cellardweller said:
mixsit, My sarcasm detector is in the shop, but I'm going to guess that there was a slight particulate in your last post.
Click to expand...
Not at all fellow taper. :cool: I'm getting a kick out of what I have for a while suspected is a shitload of misapplication of the 'Rule'. ;)

Okay, I used the 3 to 1 "rule of thumb" for a beginning point, slap on my headphones... would I pan both mics center... what am I listening for as I move the mics around?
Click to expand...
The first thing IMHO you do is toss the 'rule for a moment. Start with these simple experiments; You may want to try this with some music playing on a speaker and listening on headphones. Just hold one of the mics by hand as you go..
Place two mics at the same volume, in the same spot, right on the speaker, check the tone panned to mono. They will be in about as perfect phase as you can get. Now begin to pull one mic back, about 12" should do it. You should hear a phase/filtering effect begin in the high range, moving down in frequency as you pull the mic back.
Now pull the other mic back to that same spot. Except for different tone and more room reflections, they're now pretty much in phase again. We played with the phase time variable.
Now lets do phase depth. (Sound like a guitar stomp box? It's the same.)

Put the mics where they sounded way out of whack- (say one at zero, the other at about 8 or 10"? You pick.)
Adjust either one's volume down. Relative volume is your Comb-Eq depth control. Distance is your frequency control.
The last trick is just to know that as you move a mic out into the room, the room reflections start to override the phase notches, filling them in. So at that point you're going for where the room sounds good and not so much worry about the phase problems.
Cut to the chase.
Anytime you try to combine two fairly close mics, they will 'phase on you. But if you know the rules, you get to pick- the tones; a 57 up close, something else back a bit, the phase', the depth (their volumes) (And don't forget panning! Out of phase a bit but spread some! Wide and wild.
Go for it!
Thanks
Click to expand...
Thank you. this is a blast. :D

edit.
There is an error here I need to correct.
In simply moving of the second mic back, we are also effecting it's volume, and quickly :rolleyes: we come full circle back to the 3 - 1 effect: hiding phase filtering by attenuation.
To keep the 'time' experiment pure, we would have to raise #2's volume to compensate- just as you might if you were double micing and mixing the two.
Since phase effects happen well within the first several inches, we could also start with mic #1 at say 4", then #2 at 10 or 12 inches would not loose as much relative volume.
Wayne
 
Last edited:
Sounds interesting. Can't wait to try it. (copied and printed)

Wife had a cousin pass away this week, funeral tonight... no recordey...I'm bummed. (then again, I've been sitting here for WELL over an hour now...)

Damn I get off track easily.

Meant to say "thanx for the info"!! :D
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top