2 mics, guitar amp recording advise.

[davidcatpi]

Hello, first time here. My home recording journey is just starting. I'm a guitar player looking to record nice tones. So far, I've started to experiment with a very personal, simple approach, using a Focusrite 2i2 (2 channel input) audio interface, a shure SM57 listening a Marshall DSL40 combo. Initial testings are satisfactory but I have no doubt that a single dynamic microphone is lacking fatness, some body, something that can't be fixed properly by just doubling tracks. So, my research has let me to believe that a second microphone will add substance to the track, here is where I need some advise.

My goal is a $300-$400 microphone. So far, I'm looking at these large-diaphragm mics:

AKG C214 condenser (large-diaphragm).
Sennheiser MD421 dynamic (large-diaphragm).

To give you an idea that might help with a suggestion, I play hard rock - metal - progressive music styles, mainly leads with a preference for mids. I use virtually no EQs. My amp's setting are very close to 12' with a small boost on the 250-500hz band. (Graphic EQ on pedalboard BOSS GT-10) and filters below 60hz and past 6khz.

I hear condenser mics work very well when used to capture overall "room" sound, problem is, I'm not recording in a studio... just my room (for now) which is why I'm thinking the dynamic MD421 may be better, since it can be placed extremely close to the cab and complement my SM57 (slightly off-axis).

Which one do you guys recommend for my particular case? Thx for any help! I will highly appreciate it. (If dropping the large-diaphragm idea for a second SM57 is viable, just let me now).

 

[Justsomeguy]

Hi and welcome to the boards. To start, many times it is possible to capture a more than adequate tone with just a single SM57, but to do so you do really need to experiment with positioning the mic, the amp tone itself, and the type of guitar you are using.

However, it rock and metal it is not uncommon to use two mics to capture a single guitar cab, and in these cases the usual culprits are an SM57 combined with a ribbon mic. In these setups the ribbon mic picks up the fat, beefy bottom end of the tone and the SM57 captures the rest of it. There are plenty of reasonably priced ribbon mics available that would do a great job at this kind of application; notably the Cascade Fathead II, the Nady RSM-4, and the Apex 205 (and their equivalents under different brands that look identical expect with a different logo and sometimes colour)

Saying that, i've had great success, as i'm sure others have, at using an SM57 and an MD421 together to create a "fatter" tone, and, like you've said, either using one on and one off axis or even on different cones in a multi-speaker cab.

From my experience, LDC's work really well as room mics for electric guitars, but usually for adding air and depth to the sound rather than beefing it up.

As i said to start with, you should be able to get a more that satisfactory result with just an SM57 so before rushing out and buying another mic, i would strongly suggest experimenting more with your single mic, amp, and guitars first

 

[davidcatpi]

Hey, thanks for the quick reply. Indeed I was impressed with the sound I was able to get with just the SM57 but like you pointed out, it needed a kick in the low, low-mid range. I did several takes, from dead center to outer ring of the cone to get a feel at the different choices I have, using my combo's celestion 70/80 as well as my 1936's celestion g12t75s.

Those ribbon mics you suggested are great, they are well within my budget. (I thought ribbon mics were all expensive with no exception).

I will be picking up the Cascade Fathead II which has that extremely nice, vintage kind of look along with the MD421 because of its generalized usefulness.

One question about the Cascade, Amazon has it for $229 and another one that says Lundahl in its description and costs $150 more! What's the difference? Hopefully you mean the cheaper one .

Thanks again, this is exactly what I needed to know! While I might be going overkill with the initial setup, I'm also trying to gather all the experience I can and getting to know the mics and their "attitude" will surely be something useful.

 

[Justsomeguy]

I will be picking up the Cascade Fathead II which has that extremely nice, vintage kind of look along with the MD421 because of its generalized usefulness.

IMO a very wise decision MD421's come in handy a lot and ribbon mic's are just awesome on dirt guitar! Yeah, there was a time when ribbon mic's cost an arm and a leg, and certainly there are still some that do (for very good reasons), but since a lot of chinese factories have started turning them out there are some now some very cheap, good sounding ribbons out there.

One question about the Cascade, Amazon has it for $229 and another one that says Lundahl in its description and costs $150 more! What's the difference? Hopefully you mean the cheaper one .

Lundahl is a transformer manufacturer. Basically, a ribbon mic is made up of 2 main parts; the ribbon motor (aluminium foil suspended between two magnets) and the output transformer (that ups the signal to something usable). As ribbon mic designs are very simple, both parts have a lot of impact over the sound. Upgrading the transformer in cheaper ribbon mics is a fairly standard modification and can have quite a big impact on the overall sound of the mic. The stock transformer in the Fathead II is very good, but if you want a bit more "magic" then cascade offer transformer upgrades for...well, $150. Personally, as a start i'd say just get the cheaper, standard version, and if you like the mic and later down the line think "yeah, it's cool, but i wish it'd do something more" then look at upgrading the transformer.

 

[Greg_L]

Hi and welcome to the boards. To start, many times it is possible to capture a more than adequate tone with just a single SM57, but to do so you do really need to experiment with positioning the mic, the amp tone itself, and the type of guitar you are using.

As i said to start with, you should be able to get a more that satisfactory result with just an SM57 so before rushing out and buying another mic, i would strongly suggest experimenting more with your single mic, amp, and guitars first

This ^^^^^^^

If you can't do it with one, then two will probably get real messy.

 

[mjbphotos]

As Greg says ..... with 2 mics, you can start to experience phase issues if you don't watch your 3-to-1 ratio carefully. If you HEAR the sound you want coming from your speakers, you need to find the right placement (distance AND angle) for the mic to pick that up. Note that the mic is going to pick up sound in a more flat EQ curve than your ears, so EQing AFTER recording is best to restore the sound to what you heard. And: less distortion is more when recording - use less than you think, it'll sound better.

 

[miroslav]

Get the Fat Head...you don't really need the Lundahl tranny...all that will do is open up the top end a bit more, but I find that the standard Cascade Fat Head already has plenty for electric guitars.

Stick it out in front wherever you think the tone is best....and I like to pull it back about 12-24" depending on how much punch I want.

When the track is done....roll off the low end just a pinch to taste....and you're done.

 

[davidcatpi]

Hey guys, great responses! Thanks for the explanation, justsomeguy. A few years ago I had to change the out-tranny on my DSL100 head and so I learned how a good quality tranny can make a difference. I will leave the "lundahl" for other, more experienced times.

Right now, I'm just using that SM57 in every recording way I can think off. I'm so excited, it's like using a kids chemistry set for the first time ever as a kid, although, I never had one haha... but my imagination did.

I'm a clean tubescreamer boost kind of guy mainly because this approach allows me to back down on the amp's pre-gain stage which cleans some of the fuzzines DSL's are known for and at the same time, boost the weaker parts of my signal, like pulls-off so they are heared more clearly. I also back down on guitar's volume a bit, it helps cleaning the sound and when paired with a nice crancked amp, pick dynamics are so easy to use, gentle almost clean, subtle notes to more aggressive, saturated, climax licks.

I've watched a handful of videos on how to address the phasing issues when using 2 mics, and the easiest way I've seen is using good quiality headphones to hear the sound both mics are picking up (in a isolated zone from the amps sound) and have someone else move the secondary mic until you hear "what you are looking for", and I say that from some guy on youtube that said phasing wasn't an issue to him but rather, another way to experiment with tone depending on what you need or even, if you care to experiment.

Now, I'm learning about this whole new world of slots resonators, bass traps, angled walls, symmetrical and asymmetrical rooms. A whole new "chemistry set" to dream about.