Tim Brown
New member
Heck, look online for a Canadian distributor - I'm sure there are some up there. I'm sure there's something like Parts Express in Canada, you just need to find it, that's all.
Tim
Tim
RideTheCrash
Member
I'll look around some more. I'm asking on a local forum if anybody knows, but so far no avail. The local electronics store I mentioned has some speakers, but I'm not sure what exactly they are good for. I doubt they are guitar speakers. Ever heard of Blaster speakers by Legend? That's the cheapest they have. The most expensive is Pioneer Poly Cone something or other.
RideTheCrash
Member
Oh yeah, also, whatever two speakers I put in the middle are going to have a cut bass response (due to the caps I don't see apparently cutting the response), so I'm wondering if put the normal speakers in there is worth or, just buying new whizzer cones? I don't know. It still looks like I'll have to order online right now.
B
boingoman
New member
Tim Brown said:
Guitar speakers have as wide a response range as any other speaker, many times they go higher, actually. Guitar speakers usually go to at least 5K, some as high as 7-8K. Lots of LF and midrange drivers roll off well below that, they will be crossed over anyway, so they don't need to go very high. There may be reasons not to use a guitar speaker in a PA box, but frequency response isn't one of them. In this case, one factor would be cost- any 8" guitar speaker is going to be more expensive than most other types of 8" speaker.
And whether or not a speaker will live or die in a particular situation depends solely on how much power it can handle and how hard it is pushed. There really isn't any difference between home stereo speakers and PA speakers, except HS speakers usually just can't handle enough power.
RTC- some whizzers have decent response up to 15K and beyond, you'd definitely notice a diference, I'd say. You could also get all regular speakers, and some piezo tweeters. Those can just be paralled across one or two speakers, no crossover needed. Just drill a couple holes for them, and wire them up, maybe with a resistor and a cap, and off you go. Those are like $2 apiece.
Again, it really isn't going to matter what 8" speakers you get, I almost gaurantee they will outperform the originals. Low-end PA stuff from that era was pretty much crap when it was brand new, much less 34 years old. Even pro PA gear was crap, at that point. There wasn't any, really.
Those whizzer cones were pretty slick, though. And pretty smooth-sounding, apparently.ps= by calculations I meant using the thiele-small parameters to find drivers suitable for the box size and type. Maybe an exercise in fun or learning, but not really important for this project, probably.
Tim Brown
New member
boingoman said:Guitar speakers have as wide a response range as any other speaker, many times they go higher, actually. Guitar speakers usually go to at least 5K, some as high as 7-8K. Lots of LF and midrange drivers roll off well below that, they will be crossed over anyway, so they don't need to go very high. There may be reasons not to use a guitar speaker in a PA box, but frequency response isn't one of them. In this case, one factor would be cost- any 8" guitar speaker is going to be more expensive than most other types of 8" speaker.
And whether or not a speaker will live or die in a particular situation depends solely on how much power it can handle and how hard it is pushed. There really isn't any difference between home stereo speakers and PA speakers, except HS speakers usually just can't handle enough power.
RTC- some whizzers have decent response up to 15K and beyond, you'd definitely notice a diference, I'd say. You could also get all regular speakers, and some piezo tweeters. Those can just be paralled across one or two speakers, no crossover needed. Just drill a couple holes for them, and wire them up, maybe with a resistor and a cap, and off you go. Those are like $2 apiece.
Again, it really isn't going to matter what 8" speakers you get, I almost gaurantee they will outperform the originals. Low-end PA stuff from that era was pretty much crap when it was brand new, much less 34 years old. Even pro PA gear was crap, at that point. There wasn't any, really.
ps= by calculations I meant using the thiele-small parameters to find drivers suitable for the box size and type. Maybe an exercise in fun or learning, but not really important for this project, probably.
It was late and I was tired whenI wrote that (I had only slept 3 hours since midnight on Friday.) What I meant to say was that guiatr speakers are " voiced" differently than PA speakers are - they tend to be designed to break up more (Ever heard a Green back used as a PA speaker? Ugh! Talk about nasty...actually Celestion made PA speakers for a few years and those sounded like "poo" (I'll be clean, this isn't the dragon cave.
) as well.I would have to disagree, HS speakers materials simply can not handle live signals as well as a PA speaker can. Go look and see how many PA speakers you can find with a foam surround or a rubber surround. I haven't seen one yet. Repeatedly run a live Kick drum through a 100 watt home stereo speaker, and through a 100 watt PA speaker and see which surround gives out first.
Tim
B
boingoman
New member
Tim Brown said:
I'd say it depends on how loud it was being played, and the quality of each in the first place. Most of us use studio monitors with rubber or foam surrounds to listen to "live" music all day long. Mine, personally, have lasted many years, used as both control room and mix monitors. I listen to kick drum on them a lot. Kick drum takes me a long time to get right, so I listen to kick drum probably more than the average person.
Another way to look at it- you are saying that if I simply record my kick drum, I can play it through my home stereo with no problems, as it is now recorded, instead of live. Doesn't make sense. If it worked that way, studios would have PA speakers in their control rooms for tracking, and only use monitors for mixing.
Foam rots-rubber dries out- a speaker with a paper surround can live in a garage or truck or outside for years and be kicked around the whole time and be fine. A good foam or rubber surround that rips has been pushed too far from too much power, or was too old. Or it was a piece of shit in the first place.
And don't forget the ratings. Unless power and sensitivity are the same, it's not a fair test. Home speakers are usually low, and need lots more power to get to the same volume. Which they can't handle. And they fail. Some, I'm sure, by blowing the woofer forward so far it rips the surround.
I regularly mix for a big funk band. The bass player's rig is a Sansamp that drives a home theater sub. It's worked just fine, for the last two years, anyway.
B
boingoman
New member
ps- I agree, I would recommend PA speakers over home stuff, for sure.
RideTheCrash
Member
I just wonder about whatever speakers I put in the center 2 holes, because the cab is already wired up to be crossed over and cut the bass response and I'm too stupid to know how to re-wire everything. You know that little white/yellow-ish box in those pics I took? That is the crossover right? I would assume so, because it's the only thing in there besides a jack and a lot of speaker wire.
I'm hoping to FINALLY get to an open store today to look around, but I probably won't get anything just yet unless I see something that is definitely worth it because I'm going on vacation in a couple of days. I definitely want new whizzers or a horn or something, I want *some* higher frequency reproduction like I have now. What about speakers they use in cars? I guess those would be like a PA speaker? I ask because I will most likely stumble across some.
Oh, and if the speaker is only rated at 100 watts that's fine right? 'Cause with the five other speakers each will only be pulling about 50 watts or so, right?
Thanks guys.
I'm hoping to FINALLY get to an open store today to look around, but I probably won't get anything just yet unless I see something that is definitely worth it because I'm going on vacation in a couple of days. I definitely want new whizzers or a horn or something, I want *some* higher frequency reproduction like I have now. What about speakers they use in cars? I guess those would be like a PA speaker? I ask because I will most likely stumble across some.
Oh, and if the speaker is only rated at 100 watts that's fine right? 'Cause with the five other speakers each will only be pulling about 50 watts or so, right?
Thanks guys.
B
boingoman
New member
Yeah, that's a capacitor. If it's just that, it's a very simple crossover, really just a capacitor that lets the lower freqs pass through it instead of the speaker. I would wonder if it's even any good. No biggie, though. If it's bad, one of two things will happen- when you plug in the speakers, either the middle two will work, or they won't. It depends how the thing is wired in there.
If they do, don't think about it again. If they don't, cut it out and hook the wires together. Or get one of the same value, at 200 volts or so. The value is whatever that number before the uF. I can't imagine it will make a huge difference. It won't hurt anything to leave it out, it will just change your ratio of HF to LF, as the two speakers will put some low end out that they didn't before. I would imagine like most other things, today's whizzer cones are an improvement over those of 30 years ago. I'd bet it's a wash, overall. You could always get three whizzers.
As to the power question- yes, it's OK if the speakers are relatively low-power, because yes it will be distributed. They won't blow if you don't overpower them. Each of the six will only have to handle about 50W IF YOU USE A 300W AMP AND SPEAKERS OF THE SAME IMPEDANCE AS THE ORIGINALS, IWRED THE SAME WAY. That's what that number was based on, the original specs.
The power rating of the cab is based on the drivers in it. If you loaded that thing with 8 300W EV Force 8"s, it would handle way more power. It originally had 6 40W speakers in it, for that power handling rating of 240W, or whatever.
If they do, don't think about it again. If they don't, cut it out and hook the wires together. Or get one of the same value, at 200 volts or so. The value is whatever that number before the uF. I can't imagine it will make a huge difference. It won't hurt anything to leave it out, it will just change your ratio of HF to LF, as the two speakers will put some low end out that they didn't before. I would imagine like most other things, today's whizzer cones are an improvement over those of 30 years ago. I'd bet it's a wash, overall. You could always get three whizzers.
As to the power question- yes, it's OK if the speakers are relatively low-power, because yes it will be distributed. They won't blow if you don't overpower them. Each of the six will only have to handle about 50W IF YOU USE A 300W AMP AND SPEAKERS OF THE SAME IMPEDANCE AS THE ORIGINALS, IWRED THE SAME WAY. That's what that number was based on, the original specs.
The power rating of the cab is based on the drivers in it. If you loaded that thing with 8 300W EV Force 8"s, it would handle way more power. It originally had 6 40W speakers in it, for that power handling rating of 240W, or whatever.
RideTheCrash
Member
Well, I'm assuming the capacitor still works because the whizzer cones I have in there now work. If I took it out of the equation I don't have enough knowledge of series/parallel wiring to be able to switch it all around. Do they even really call them whizzer cones anymore?
Right now I only have a 170 watt amp at my disposale and I'm powering 5 speakers, because one is gone.
Right now I only have a 170 watt amp at my disposale and I'm powering 5 speakers, because one is gone.
RideTheCrash
Member
Okay, I finally went and checked out two local places. I went in the first place and realized they wouldn't be of much help, so I decided to go to a smaller store that does rentals, repairs and sells a lot of used stuff and cheap crap. The guy who owns it I think helped put together Grant Avenue Studios, where Lanois started out.
So, I started talking to his wife/partner and described what I had. She seemed to recognize it and said she had actually seen it in that thrift store before, but decided it wasn't worth it. She asked me what I was powering it with (just a 170 watt receiver for now...) and described how if the cab doesn't receive enough power the cones move very little, which causes the voice coil to burn a spot or something. Anyone have any idea about that?
I got talking to the guy who it after a bit and, while they didn't have any in stock, he flipped through a book which seemed to contain all or mostly Eminence speakers and suggested "Pacers". At least I'm sure he was saying "pacer" speakers, but I can't find anything on them. I probably heard wrong. Anyway, the speakers are only 20 watts...
He said to replace the ones I need to just for now. I guess he thought I was talking about a guitar cab for a while, because he called it one and I said "the YSC-8"? And he kind of clued in, "oh yeah, that's an old vocal cabinet". Maybe it's not entirely worth it, and it's old, buttt it still does what I need it to for now.
But anyway -- it's like 33 bucks a pop for these 20 watt 8" speakers, which I'm sure are Eminence (Pacer??). 20 watts sounds kind of...low? What do you guys think? I'm pretty much at a loss right now as to what I should do.
So, I started talking to his wife/partner and described what I had. She seemed to recognize it and said she had actually seen it in that thrift store before, but decided it wasn't worth it. She asked me what I was powering it with (just a 170 watt receiver for now...) and described how if the cab doesn't receive enough power the cones move very little, which causes the voice coil to burn a spot or something. Anyone have any idea about that?
I got talking to the guy who it after a bit and, while they didn't have any in stock, he flipped through a book which seemed to contain all or mostly Eminence speakers and suggested "Pacers". At least I'm sure he was saying "pacer" speakers, but I can't find anything on them. I probably heard wrong. Anyway, the speakers are only 20 watts...
He said to replace the ones I need to just for now. I guess he thought I was talking about a guitar cab for a while, because he called it one and I said "the YSC-8"? And he kind of clued in, "oh yeah, that's an old vocal cabinet". Maybe it's not entirely worth it, and it's old, buttt it still does what I need it to for now.
But anyway -- it's like 33 bucks a pop for these 20 watt 8" speakers, which I'm sure are Eminence (Pacer??). 20 watts sounds kind of...low? What do you guys think? I'm pretty much at a loss right now as to what I should do.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
Yeah I have an opinion on that ....... bullshit.RideTheCrash said:
It is true that if you run too little power into a speaker and try to get it loud you could burn the coil because you end up with too much distortion which is high energy but it'll mainly get tweeters and for what you're doing it shouldn't apply.
I still think you ought to get some of those $10 speakers from Parts Express.
RideTheCrash
Member
The $10 speakers are looking good still, yes.
I've looked up this underpowering stuff on the forum, mostly coming across guitar cab stuff though. I was kind of sketchy on what the woman said. I guess the guy is a musician and music has always been his passion, but they were originally a hardware store, and I know the woman can't really play any instruments and I'm not sure how much knowledge she has on issues like this.
I understand the underpowering concept, but at the same time, I'm not going to be running this cab for long periods of times, frequently. Seriously, it's not too often I have people come over to jam. Besides, I've abused so many home stereo speakers in the past, that still sound great, I'm pretty sure I'll have a hard time fucking this one up. She also mentioned I'm only using half of my (170 watt) amp. I didn't describe it real detail as to how it's hooked up, but it's my mono output from my board (finally have a use for it) that runs to 2 RCAs on the receiver and the speaker wire is in the left or right speaker channel.
Probably not the greatest idea, but I'm a dumbass when it comes to speakers and amps. When I go into work tonight I'm going to talk to a coworker who said his brother might have some 8" speakers lying around. His brother does a lot of car work and I've been in one of rigged up cars...so I'm assuming they would be car type speakers. But if he does have any, I could probably get 'em cheap.
I'll only buy from PE if my local options fall through, just due to shipping/border charges.
I've looked up this underpowering stuff on the forum, mostly coming across guitar cab stuff though. I was kind of sketchy on what the woman said. I guess the guy is a musician and music has always been his passion, but they were originally a hardware store, and I know the woman can't really play any instruments and I'm not sure how much knowledge she has on issues like this.
I understand the underpowering concept, but at the same time, I'm not going to be running this cab for long periods of times, frequently. Seriously, it's not too often I have people come over to jam. Besides, I've abused so many home stereo speakers in the past, that still sound great, I'm pretty sure I'll have a hard time fucking this one up. She also mentioned I'm only using half of my (170 watt) amp. I didn't describe it real detail as to how it's hooked up, but it's my mono output from my board (finally have a use for it) that runs to 2 RCAs on the receiver and the speaker wire is in the left or right speaker channel.
Probably not the greatest idea, but I'm a dumbass when it comes to speakers and amps. When I go into work tonight I'm going to talk to a coworker who said his brother might have some 8" speakers lying around. His brother does a lot of car work and I've been in one of rigged up cars...so I'm assuming they would be car type speakers. But if he does have any, I could probably get 'em cheap.
I'll only buy from PE if my local options fall through, just due to shipping/border charges.
Tim Brown
New member
Canadian Electronics companies coming your way!
As I find the companies, I'll post them.
http://www.rpelectronics.com/
Click Catalog at the top right, then speakers and accessories on the left hand side toolbar.
They just have a few 8" speakers.
They have a 70Volt 8" speaker with a whizzer on it on the speaker front page- Do not buy it - you do not have a 70Volt Line distribution set up.
Tim
As I find the companies, I'll post them.
http://www.rpelectronics.com/
Click Catalog at the top right, then speakers and accessories on the left hand side toolbar.
They just have a few 8" speakers.
They have a 70Volt 8" speaker with a whizzer on it on the speaker front page- Do not buy it - you do not have a 70Volt Line distribution set up.
Tim
RideTheCrash
Member
Cool, thanks, I hadn't been able to find any online places myself.
Is something like 20 watts way too low for this cab? Doesn't sound like much.
Also -- my coworker suggested this auto place downtown that sells speakers really cheap. Now, mind you this would be like speakers people install in their cars...would they even be worth the look? I guess the original speakers in this cab are full range (Marsland speakers), like that websites lists...I wouldn't want a woofer right, 'cause isn't that all low end? Also, is there a certain frequency range that makes a speaker full range?
Ahh, so many questions. I'm appreciating the help guys.
Is something like 20 watts way too low for this cab? Doesn't sound like much.
Also -- my coworker suggested this auto place downtown that sells speakers really cheap. Now, mind you this would be like speakers people install in their cars...would they even be worth the look? I guess the original speakers in this cab are full range (Marsland speakers), like that websites lists...I wouldn't want a woofer right, 'cause isn't that all low end? Also, is there a certain frequency range that makes a speaker full range?
Ahh, so many questions. I'm appreciating the help guys.
RideTheCrash
Member
Yorkville sent me this:
History
1971
The YSC-8 column was basically an updated YSC-1. There were four of the standard #7385 eights and two closed-basket eights in the middle with whizzer cones for added highs. Power = 100 Watts rms, imp. = 8 Ohms (the two middle speakers had capacitors to reduce their bass response and isolate them from the overall load impedance).
YORKVILLE SOUND
MANUFACTURED PRODUCTS ARCHIVE
FINAL YEAR & LIST PRICE
LAST: 1978
LISTED EACH: 215
MODEL CODE: YSC-8
DESCRIPTION: PA COLUMN "TRAYNOR" 6X8" (2 W/WHIZZER CONES) 100W, 8R
They also sent me a .PDF with the schematics for a bunch of their old cabs, including mine. Mine is here:
It looks pretty damn simple and I can actually make sense of it. The typewriting on it is damn hard to read though.
Looks like the normal speakers, "A", are 4x8 (?) speaker (20 watts, 8 ohms), and the whizzers, "B", are 2x8 (?), also 20 watts and 8 ohms.
The cap value is 50/56 (?) uF 100V #5812. 80 watt system.
What is program and system wattage? I keep seeing different wattage for this cab...200 watt, 100 watt, now 80 watt.
But if the original speakers were only 20 watts I should be okay for whatever I buy. I just got back from vacation so I haven't a chance to check out some shops yet. But if there was 20 watts for speakers that would = 120 watts?
History
1971
The YSC-8 column was basically an updated YSC-1. There were four of the standard #7385 eights and two closed-basket eights in the middle with whizzer cones for added highs. Power = 100 Watts rms, imp. = 8 Ohms (the two middle speakers had capacitors to reduce their bass response and isolate them from the overall load impedance).
YORKVILLE SOUND
MANUFACTURED PRODUCTS ARCHIVE
FINAL YEAR & LIST PRICE
LAST: 1978
LISTED EACH: 215
MODEL CODE: YSC-8
DESCRIPTION: PA COLUMN "TRAYNOR" 6X8" (2 W/WHIZZER CONES) 100W, 8R
They also sent me a .PDF with the schematics for a bunch of their old cabs, including mine. Mine is here:
It looks pretty damn simple and I can actually make sense of it. The typewriting on it is damn hard to read though.
Looks like the normal speakers, "A", are 4x8 (?) speaker (20 watts, 8 ohms), and the whizzers, "B", are 2x8 (?), also 20 watts and 8 ohms.
The cap value is 50/56 (?) uF 100V #5812. 80 watt system.
What is program and system wattage? I keep seeing different wattage for this cab...200 watt, 100 watt, now 80 watt.
But if the original speakers were only 20 watts I should be okay for whatever I buy. I just got back from vacation so I haven't a chance to check out some shops yet. But if there was 20 watts for speakers that would = 120 watts?
RideTheCrash
Member
I ended going to a local electronics shop and picked up some $25 speakers that look and sound pretty decent. I only bought two for now, just to check 'em out and they work fine. I replaced the two ripped cones, so now it can actually handle bass. I need another one or two and then I have to figure out what to do about this whizzer cone stuff. The shop only had rectangle horns, but I guess I could order some whizzers from another shop, but I'm not even sure if it's worth it. I'm playing some music through the cab now and it's kind of harsh on the highs, I dunno if it's just the fact that the whizzers are 30+ years old or what.
Anyway, these new speakers are 100 watts, 8 ohms. Just thought I would update. Now I need a real power amp...
Anyway, these new speakers are 100 watts, 8 ohms. Just thought I would update. Now I need a real power amp...
RideTheCrash
Member
I re-read this thread and it appears these speakers have rubber around the cone instead of paper, and the cone itself isn't paper. Did I fuck up?
They seem to be okay, and this is just staying in a room in my house, and won't be used frequently. The original paper cones, most were all ripped around the edges and had little rips everywhere, so I think the new ones will hold up fine, especially considering they won't be in such a...hostile environment.
I just need some reassurance I guess.
They seem to be okay, and this is just staying in a room in my house, and won't be used frequently. The original paper cones, most were all ripped around the edges and had little rips everywhere, so I think the new ones will hold up fine, especially considering they won't be in such a...hostile environment.
I just need some reassurance I guess.
Last edited:
RideTheCrash
Member
*bump*
10 chars.
10 chars.
Lt. Bob
Spread the Daf!
OK ..... I'll give you some reassurance ........... didn't you say they sound OK? There .... problem solved.
Thing is ..... you got these for cheap and put some cheapish speakers in them because you just needed something to diddle around with at the house.
If they bsound ok then you've accomplished that at a low price. Are there better speakers you could get? No doubt ..... but you'll pay WAY more per driver. Is it worth it? Almost certainly not. If you're gonna get into pricey drivers ..... then you're gonna want to put them in something other than those columns.
So I think you did fine.
Thing is ..... you got these for cheap and put some cheapish speakers in them because you just needed something to diddle around with at the house.
If they bsound ok then you've accomplished that at a low price. Are there better speakers you could get? No doubt ..... but you'll pay WAY more per driver. Is it worth it? Almost certainly not. If you're gonna get into pricey drivers ..... then you're gonna want to put them in something other than those columns.
So I think you did fine.