16 vs. 24 vs, 32(floating) bit recording

[BigRay]

http://199.224.117.240/~scb/index.php?path=dvd-audiofile/ (dvd a app for windows)
http://199.224.117.240/~scb/DVD-Audiofile0.4.zip (app for mac)

these are really easy. Drag and drop. Completely free, written by a fellow audio guy/computer geek

Some other apps that do this are:
toast with jam(mac) (http://www.roxio.com/en/products/toastwithjam/index.jhtml)
Discwelder(pc,mac) (http://www.discwelder.com/)
Audio DVD Creator (this doesnt make a "true" dvd audio file , but rather makes a Video_TS file with the audio of yours written as a dvd file...that any dvd player can read)(http://www.audio-dvd-creator.com/) This is also the cheapest, price wise..of the programs.

I have discwelder chrome, and love it. It also can burn DSD to PCM discs.

Well, I'm no expert on DVD audio but there's a couple reasons DVD's sound better than CD's.

1) Dynamic Range: Movie soundtracks actually use it! They aren't squashed into the top 6dB like most commercial CD's. This is probably most of what makes it sound better, in addition to the...

2) Higher Resolution: As you say DVD's are higher res. and that lets the lower volume stuff maintain its integrity. Just going to 24 bit is most of the difference that's easily heard- and the jury is still out about how much benefit there is to really high sample rates, especially with pro-sumer gear.

Most CD/DVD burning software I've seen recently has some sort of option to burn DVD music disc, but I'm not sure how well it works. I just tried it with Toast on my computer and it handled 24/96 files just fine.

Anyway, I wouldn't go overboard worrying about 24/983472374562398567... unless you're working video and are going to end up at a higher samplerate.

-Chris

 

[BigRay]

DVD Audio and DVD movie audio are two different things. DVD-Music isn't actually an official DVD format, but it has become a commonly used name for a DVD-Video disc that contains primarily music. A DVD-Music disc plays in any standard DVD player with video or still pictures that accompany the audio. DVD-Audio discs contain special high-fidelity audio tracks that can only be played in DVD-Audio players.


DVD-Audio is a separate format from DVD-Video. DVD-Audio discs can be designed to work in DVD-Video players, but it's possible to make a DVD-Audio disc that won't play at all in a DVD-Video player, since the DVD-Audio specification includes new formats and features, with content stored in a separate "DVD-Audio zone" on the disc (the AUDIO_TS directory) that DVD-Video players never look at. New DVD-Audio players are needed, or new "universal players" that can play both DVD-Video and DVD-Audio discs. Universal players are also called VCAPs (video-capable audio players

It sounds like your DVD Player can play DVD Audio Discs(which are 24/96 size dvd audio formats)..so I would try to burn a dvd audio disc using the windows application above(since it is free) and if that doesnt work, try audio dvd creator.

It is also worth noting that the toshiba 4960 is a universal player that is pretty cheap, (79 bucks)and can be modified very well.

Teddy

So what about DVD? my DVD player has 24/96 on the DVD tray. If you burn a CD or DVD at that (thats if the software permits you) will the DVD player play it? I cant try it for testing since my DVD player is old and cant read disks I burn. Thats another thing. If it says 24/96 I asume DVD movies audio is at that rate cause it just sounds so much better than an audio cd which is 16/44.

 

[Chris Shaeffer]

Wow. Thanks, Teddy. Those are some *very* helpful posts!

-Chris

 

[rgraves]

Hey guys, so is there a concensus on whether it is even worth it to record at 32 bit float? It seems from the reading I've been doing that everyone just does it at 24 bit?

I've been recording at 32-bit float this whole time and didn't even know it.

Also, can someone clarify the process to make sure I'm doing it right...I believe I understand that I would track at 24(or 32)bit, then mix in that same bit rate, and then(this is the part I'm unsure of) transfer a final stereo mix to a single track (for one whole song) in 24(or32) bit and import and master it. After it is completed, then I would dither it down to 16 bit to place on a CD? Is that the right steps??


Thanks!

 

[DonF]

Hey guys, so is there a concensus on whether it is even worth it to record at 32 bit float? It seems from the reading I've been doing that everyone just does it at 24 bit?

A/D converters usually work in either 16 or 24 bit PCM format, which uses signed integers to represent sample values. This has advantages for moving data quickly from the converter to the computer. But for all the processing in between recording and burning the CD (or whatever the target format), floating-point math has significant advantages over integer math. The only real disadvantage is that a 32-bit sample is 25% larger than a 24-bit sample; so there's a tradeoff in disk space.

As an (admittedly contrived and extreme) example, if you take a recorded track, drop the level by 200dB, then raise it by 200dB, what will you have? If you're using an integer format, you'll have nothing. In floating-point format, though, you'll wind up with exactly what you started with.

In a nutshell, you're probably doing the best thing by letting your software work with the data in floating-point format.

Is that the right steps??

Looks good to me.

Don

 

[dgatwood]

Hey guys, so is there a concensus on whether it is even worth it to record at 32 bit float? It seems from the reading I've been doing that everyone just does it at 24 bit?

No difference.

Your audio interface generates 24-bit integer samples. Your audio software and/or the OS will convert it to 32-bit float samples for processing because it's easier to do mixing in float (extra headroom reduces risk of clipping in the mix process).

The conversion math between 24-bit integer and 32-bit float is, AFAIK, lossless precision---that is, any 24-bit integer value can be converted to a 32-bit float value and back and will result in the exact same value.

Thus, the only difference between recording in 24-bit int and 32-bit float is this:

24-bit integer: your CPU does a couple of very simple math operations on every sample to convert to 32-bit float.

floating point: your CPU does a negligibly less work in processing, but does 33% more work reading it from the disk.

Don't use 32-bit float as an on-disk format. Any gains you get from pre-converting the audio data will be drastically outweighed by the performance impact of increased I/O. This won't matter much for small projects, but if you start operating anywhere near the limit of your CPU's performance, your format choice can make the difference between usable (24-bit) and unusable (32-bit) with no real advantage to using 32-bit.

 

[DonF]

...

You can say that again!

 

[dgatwood]

You can say that again!

D'oh! Repost deleted.

I'd also like to add that your software will almost certainly always mix in 32-bit float no matter what the input data format is. Every plug-in mechanism I've ever seen is 32-bit float (or, occasionally, 64-bit double, but still floating point).

 

[Farview]

No difference.

Your audio interface generates 24-bit integer samples. Your audio software and/or the OS will convert it to 32-bit float samples for processing because it's easier to do mixing in float (extra headroom reduces risk of clipping in the mix process).

The conversion math between 24-bit integer and 32-bit float is, AFAIK, lossless precision---that is, any 24-bit integer value can be converted to a 32-bit float value and back and will result in the exact same value.

Thus, the only difference between recording in 24-bit int and 32-bit float is this:

24-bit integer: your CPU does a couple of very simple math operations on every sample to convert to 32-bit float.

floating point: your CPU does a negligibly less work in processing, but does 33% more work reading it from the disk.

Don't use 32-bit float as an on-disk format. Any gains you get from pre-converting the audio data will be drastically outweighed by the performance impact of increased I/O. This won't matter much for small projects, but if you start operating anywhere near the limit of your CPU's performance, your format choice can make the difference between usable (24-bit) and unusable (32-bit) with no real advantage to using 32-bit.

Aboslutely! Great post.