16 bit? crap!

  • Thread starter Thread starter dobro
  • Start date Start date

do you have or want a DVD player?

  • I have one.

    Votes: 15 65.2%

  • I don't have one, but I want one.

    Votes: 4 17.4%

  • I don't have one, and I don't want one.

    Votes: 3 13.0%

  • I'm into vinyl.

    Votes: 1 4.3%
  • Total voters
    23
dobro

dobro

Well-known member
I track and mix in 24-bit. Recently, every time I've converted my mixes to 16-bit, I've winced with regret, cuz I know what it's doing to the sound.

I'm *really* ready for 24-bit audio players. DVD, yeah. I don't even want surround. DVD video's fine with me. Two channels of 24-bit sound. Wouldn't even mind if it's 88.2 either.

How many here have DVD players? I want to know how close we are to the golden day when I don't have to dumb everything down to 16-bit anymore.
 
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Yeah, I'm dithering as correctly as my software allows. The thing is this: I listen *really* carefully to a mix for a couple of hours, and then convert it to 16-bit for a CD burn so I can listen to it on various players. Every time I listen to the 16-bit mixdown, it's obvious the sound is degraded. And as for mp3...:mad:
 
I know where your coming from. As someone who grew up listening to vinyl through tubes as well as doing some recording in a real 16-track 2" studio, I feel your pain. :D

The only thing that hurts more is not being able to afford that shit these days.

Digital is more convenient, though. :rolleyes:
 
Yo Dobro:

Question: When you mix your music to 16 bit, do you first make a stereo track?

If you make a stereo track, doesn't your gear allow you to tweak the tracks prior to dumping into two track stereo, which usually precedes burning 16 bit CD?

And, once you have the stereo track, can't you tweak that before you go to CD?

I'm not an expert but you might be missing a step somewhere which results in unhappy listening when you do your CD.

Just a shot in the dark.

Green Hornet:D :cool:
 
You know, there's this thing that people (especially women) say, kinda wrily, about fashion: 'don't throw it out - it'll come back into fashion in 20 years'.

I just got into this game, otherwise I'd probably have my hands on some analog gear down at the recorder end of the chain. I wouldn't get rid of it. I figure it'll start sounding *really* interesting in about 10 years. Right about the time we've made digital sound as good as digital can be made to sound...
 
GH - when I make a 16-bit mixdown of a mix, it's a stereo track, yeah. My editor, Cool Edit (1.2, 2.0) allows different dithering options for the conversion from 24-bit to 16-bit.

But after I've created that mixdown, I switch into my CD burning software for the actual CD burn. If there's a missing step, I don't know what it is. What did you have in mind?

But there's this as well (I'm going off-topic here) - the CDs I burn are noisier than commerical CDs by a long shot. So are CDs that other people on this board make. I'm not sure if the noise is coming from the tracking stage or the CD burning stage.
 
I am confused here dobro! Are you saying that when you listen to the CDR of your mix it sounds different than your mix does when it is loaded in CE?

Okay, that MIGHT be the case, BUT, are you comparing them through the same D/A converters? If not, well, you are just hearing the difference between D/A converters NOT the effects of dithering down.

Tell you the truth, there should be little difference between a properly dithered 16 bit recording and the original 24 bit recording.

Tell me how you are comparing the two versions. If it isn't through the same D/A converters then you are learning the reality that EVERY mixing eningeer HAS to learn, that you have to learn what your room and mixing system sounds like in relation to the rest of the world of playback systems and make accomidations for that while you are mixing. I don't alway mix stuff to sound great at the studio, but it will sure sound good elsewhere.

Ed
 
Dobro:

Here is what I meant about missing a step. My gear: Yam 2816.

When I've done the mix balance and effects for the tracks, the next step is to put the mix into stereo tracks in order to burn the CD.

My final options to process the input signal of the stereo track involve selecting an EQ program; also, I can punch in something from the Dynamics processor menu, which involves limiters and overall compression.

After I do the stereo track, I can listen to it; if I don't like what I hear, I can erase the the stereo track, which I' sure you can also do, and do it over making compression, EQ, and limiter adjustments.

I'm really just getting used to this process but I have put out some pretty good CD's.

Sometimes when I input outside back-up music to do a vocal or spoof a song, any noise on the cassette I use or even CD is, of course, ingested and somewhat amplified.

Final thought: You should be able to put in some stuff on your stereo track which should enhance it when you push the finalize button.

Green Hornet
 
But there's this as well (I'm going off-topic here) - the CDs I burn are noisier than commerical CDs by a long shot. So are CDs that other people on this board make. I'm not sure if the noise is coming from the tracking stage or the CD burning stage.
Click to expand...

Are they more noisy from digital or analog mixes? I've never burned a CD from any of my mixes. I have yet to buy a burner.
 
sonusman said:

Tell you the truth, there should be little difference between a properly dithered 16 bit recording and the original 24 bit recording.


Ed
Click to expand...

Yeah.

I notice little if any difference when im finished dithering down to 16.
 
I don't suppose you ever considered having your final 24 bit mixes professionally mastered? The engineers I've had the privilige of using have given me a final 16 bit product that sounds even better than the 24 bit mixes I submit.
 
littledog said:
The engineers I've had the privilige of using have given me a final 16 bit product that sounds even better than the 24 bit mixes I submit.
Click to expand...

I like hearing statements like this. this is good.
 
And expensive. :D

Okay, I went back and listened again, and this time the 24-bit and 16-bit mixdown's sounded very similar. Recently I had a duff setting on my new version of Coo Edit, and it was playing stuff back through wave mapper, so maybe that was it.

But that raises two other questions. If there's not so much difference in sound between 16- and 24-bit mixdowns, why are so many of you buying DVDs? For video, right? Okay, so if you thought that enough people had DVD players, would you start burning 24-bit mixdowns?
 
CRAP! Should I just unbox my Portastudio, and cancel my order for the ALESIS HD24? (kidding, i think)

Most of you guys are doing this on computer. I'll be using a Mackie SR-24 mixer, with the HD24. Is there any benefit to NOT going to a computer in the situation we are discussing?

By the way, I think I actually read on this board where a guy did all his mixing to stereo on a PORTASTUDIO to "fatten it." Could it be!!!
This inner 16bit - 24bit pergatory is killing me.

titan
PEACE
 
Well after this thread, I don't think anybody is going to believe anything I say. Ever. :D Anyway, one big advantage of 24-bit systems is in their ability to process sounds better - you can do all sorts of effects and processes and not do as much damage to the sound if you have those extra bits. Another advantage is when you're recording - with 24 bits, you don't have to be so concerned to get the levels as hot as possible, because you've got more dynamic range to work with.
 
dobro said:
Well after this thread, I don't think anybody is going to believe anything I say. Ever.
Click to expand...

Well, your credibility wasn't so hot before this thread, eithe... (OOPS! You're a moderator here!)

Hehe, just joking, old sport! We hang on your every word in rapt attention! Really! :eek:

Actually, to be serious, some day I'd like to know what moderators do on this board. Since, thankfully, censorship seems to be a non-issue here, unlike other boards. And the moderators are not hired for their expertise, unlike some other boards (no offense, I hope!) that use top names as moderators.

Kind of reminds me of that old joke:

What has less practical function than nipples on a bull?
(A homerec moderator???)

Is it a paid position? Where do I apply!!!:D
 
If you put your tongue lightly against your upper lip and blow air between them, you get a sound that approximates to this:

plplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplplppllplp

:D
 
as a final delivery format 16 bit really isnt so bad. Listen to the first few CD's made. Early on people took serious advantage of a CD's dynamic range. Lows so wuiet you moved in towards your speaker...then...WHACK KABOOM! they would slam something ultraloud at you! With todays compression and mastering techniques I think you wouldnt notice if a lot were 8 bit.

Take a modern 16 bit CD and convert it to 8 bit in Soundforge or something. See if you really hear any difference.

Now listen to something like Black Sabbath's Mob Rules on CD
 
Dobro - Izotope has a new dithering guide at http://www.izotope.com/products/audio/ozone/ozoneguide.html . I printed it out at work (its 32 pages) and have just scanned over it. Looks like some good stuff with nice pictures too :D . They also have a zipped download with .wav files that go along with the guide. Before and after kind of stuff. I hope to have time to read it this weekend.

DD
 
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