<$1000 total, mics/pres for male vocal, acoustic guitar

[oldboy]

So, I want to upgrade my home studio and I have been searching all over this forum for the past week, staying up late and reading post after post – not sure how much I’ve absorbed but I think my brain is going to explode. I’m going to see if I can audition mics at the store, but I’m still a newbie at this and any advice would be appreciated.

1) Goals: record quality male vocals and acoustic guitar, stereo mic the acoustic guitar, as “professional sounding” as possible (I know I know, it’s a home studio)
*secondary concerns: mic female voice, not sure about using bass synth or micing my cheap bass through my cheap bass amp, may mic strings/trumpet MUCH later
2) Sound Source: rock/folk/soul musical style, voice and playing are fairly dynamic, Takamine acoustic with built in pick-up (~$800)
3) Current Equipment: SM58 -> Audiobuddy -> Audiophile 24/96 -> Cubase SX, clavia ddrums -> MIDI of Audiophile 24/96…
4) Budget: up to $1000
5) unrelated question: Anyone know of good wireless headphones? I have a Sony MDR-7504, but the cord sometimes bangs into stuff and makes noise while I’m recording. Or is there another solution?

So I figure my current signal chain is okay but not great for what I want to do. At this point I’m not able to do anything about the room acoustics. So how should I spend the $1000 for mic(s) and pre(s)? I’m assuming my Audiophile is decent and upgrading wouldn’t affect my chain too much, but tell me if I’m wrong. I would prefer to buy gear that I can build off of and not have to throw out when I upgrade again. Are $300 mics that much “better” than $100 ones like the SP B1s (same question for pres)? Would it be wiser to spend more on the preamp now, while I get more experience with mics, or would that be kind of ridiculous since a mediocre mic and fantastic preamp won’t give as good a sound as fantastic mic and mediocre preamp. Or should I just buy low-end but decent stuff now while educating myself before I make a few huge purchases (relatively speaking) that I will regret. I’m confused. Thanks a lot.

- oldboy

 

[c7sus]

This is just one opinion, so take it for what it's worth............

You're likely to get better bass sounds running DI rather than recording in an untreated room.

If you're vox and guitar has a lot of dynamics, compression can help with that. Maybe an RNC.

A "fantastic mic/mediocre pre" combo is a mismatch that should be avoided if at all possible, unless you are after a certain "effect."

In the $1000 and under realm for both mics and pres a good bet might be an RNP/RNC combo and a couple Octava MC012's. That would leave you enough $ to score a budget LD condensor to use on vox.

www.mercenaryaudio.com

 

[oldboy]

Thanks for the reply. Are there online side-by-side comparisons between non-compressed and compressed audio? I'm not sure how compression "colors" the sound, or does it mostly just boost the signal so you can get it loud enough for the mix.

Your post got me reading about the whole compression during tracking or mixing debate and it seems that most people do a little during tracking and then most during mixing. I'm kinda curious how many people have been able to do compression solely in software (mix), and not have trouble with clipping. That would be ideal for me, but I'll experiment. How would a RNC/Audiobuddy compare to the RNC/RNP? How important is the preamp in the signal chain for what I'm doing? Now I realize I also need monitors too... *sigh*

 

[chessrock]

You might like something like a Shure KSM-44 and a good $500-600 range mic pre to go with it . . . something like RNP, Grace Design, or Safesound P1.

 

[cominginsecond]

You might like something like a Shure KSM-44 and a good $500-600 range mic pre to go with it . . . something like RNP, Grace Design, or Safesound P1.

Just to let you know, oldboy, this exceeds your budget by a couple hundred at least, unless you can find the stuff used.

 

[oldboy]

Okay, I think I've decided most of what I'm going to buy.

1) FMR RNP preamp (guitar/voice)
2) matched pair of MXL603S (guitar)
3) Yorkville YSM1p's (monitoring)
4) vocal mic, yet to be determined

So that puts me over my budget a bit, but I think this may be a good starting point. Anyone see any discrepancies with this combo? Does the MXL603S->RNP->Audiophile24/96 chain make sense? Any vocal mics that pair well with the RNP? I'm a little bit concerned about the coloration of the RNP, but everybody here seems to love it so I'll take a gamble. Thanks.

 

[cominginsecond]

From what I understand (I don't own it) the RNP is actually on the neutral side.

 

[jdier]

The RNP is nice. I have one and like it very much.

For the stereo mics I have had success with two SM57's (and they will forever be useful to you for all kinds of applications.)

I also have Oktava 012's which, while very entry level, have worked very well for me.

I have Studio Projects B1's and a C3. For some voices (I have only recorded 5 voices) the B1 is the best choice but for most the C3 is best.

As far as monitoring, I would ask why you think you need new monitors. I do not want to suggest that you do not, but if what you hear when you put a mix CD in your car or home stereo sounds like what you expected it to sound like while mixing, you really do not have a monitoring need.

I say this only because I use a very 'home recording' monitoring chain which some may raise their nose to, but, in the end, my mixes in the car sound exactly as I expect them to while I am mixing at the desk. (just a thought.)

For Bass, I concur with C7 that you should record bass DI. Good news is that the RNP has a DI built right into it!

So here is my suggestion:

FMR RNP (Maybe think about also adding the RNC) $500 (or combo $650)

Pair of SM57's ($180)

Studio Projects B1 or C1 or C3 (try them)

If you skip the compressor you have room to also pick up a set of Oktava 012's

I think that the FMR products will always have a home in your studio, the SM57 will also, and you could always find a use for the Studio Projects mic if you ever decide to pick up a $2000 primary vocal mic.

Also, the RNP should not add any coloration. I am no pro, but I certainly do not hear it. I have a Meek too, and that provides color.

Hope that this is of some help.

Jim

 

[SubA]

pre to consider (if you can find one)

The best pre I've used on vocals was a Peavey VMP2, which I should be shot in the ass for selling. I don't remember ever using it on an acoustic, but for male vocals, it was terrific.

 

[chessrock]

Re: pre to consider (if you can find one)

which I should be shot in the ass for selling.

You should be shot in the ass for not selling it to me.

 

[SubA]

Re: Re: pre to consider (if you can find one)

You should be shot in the ass for not selling it to me.

yeah, they're pretty nice, eh? Every once in a while I check around for one, but no luck. I am truly a dipshit.

 

[oldboy]

This is subjective, but how do the Octava012 pair and SM57 pair compare to the MXL603s for acoustic guitar? I hear the 603s are good on acoustic intstruments. Bass DI on the RNP sounds promising, will definitely try it.

Jim, thanks for the reply. The reason I'm considering the Yorkvilles is primarily from this BBS. I see what you're saying about expensive monitors not being necessary, since in the end your ears and mixing process adjusts to your monitors no matter what quality they are (and the cross referencing with diff systems also helps). Since people say high quality monitors make mixing "easier" for people with little mixing experience (like me) I was considering streamlining the process for myself.

The whole RNP coloration thing I read from this board and newsgroups. The comments were that the RNP is better for pop/rock but not as good for recording classical or ambient sounds (insects, water running, etc), because it adds its own color. But some of these comments may have been made in comparison to the Grace101, which may be a high standard. Too bad it only has 1 channel, and I need 2.

 

[oldboy]

Well, I just listened to the MC012/MXL603 comparison that was posted and the MC012s were fuller sounding, while the 603s were a bit thin. Then I read Flatpicker's reply about how on his own test he got the exact opposite result. ?????? I guess it all has to do with mic positioning, room acoustics.... I'm still waffling on the stereo pair.

 

[cominginsecond]

I personally like the MC012s much better than the 603s. There's just a certain "ouch" that the 603s add to acoustic guitar, IMO.

 

[oldboy]

What do you mean by "ouch"?

 

[cominginsecond]

I mean harsh. Ouchy to the ears. I'm guessing an abundance of 7-8 kHz, but it's not like I'm a trained engineer or anything. All I know is that it hurt to hear some of the tracks I cut with this mic. I don't get that with my MC012s. They result in a much woodier, bassier tone, with highs that are present, but not "ouchy." That's the best I can do. Lots of people love them, but I'm not one of them.

 

[chessrock]

They just don't do anything to hide any ouch factor that may already be there. It varies from guitar to guitar, though. What kind of pick you use or how hard you strum has every bit as much to do with it.

When I think of mics that have ouch factor, stuff like the older Rode NT1's or AKG C1000 come to mind. The 603's most definitely have some treble factor, but not the ouchy kind.

 

[jdier]

I cannot compare the 603's to the Oktavas or SM57 since I have never used the 603's.

For the monitor issue, do what you think is right. I have held off because of the reasons I have shared above, but also because I think when I get real monitors they are going to run me closer to $1000, and for now, my mixes are translating pretty well.

You can hear a bit of what I have done so far here:

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/0/rmuttmusic.htm

The mics, channels and methods are better described here:

http://www.recording.org/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=21;t=001746

Regarding coloration, I am far, far, far from a pro, and I have not used all that much gear, but I would seriously question anyone saying that the RNP colors the sound. I really think you will be happy with your results with it.

Jim

 

[sleego]

I've got 13 or 14 mics around here and almost always go back to a very affordable one for vocals. It's and ADK A-51 large diaphram condenser. It sounds great on male vocals. It tends to neutralize acoustic guitars to some degree as you hear more of the strings than the tone wood. I usually use a variety of 2 mics (AKG Lg or sm cond., Shure SM57, etc) and another ADK A51 as a room mic to capture some of the air and room of the sound.

Many local shops have a 30 day return policy if you're not happy with a purchase also if you want to demo a few mics.