Solved -10 or +4

[danny.guitar]

Which one should I be using with my setup?

Mic -> DMP3 -> M-Audio Audiophile 24/96

I'm not using balanced cables.

Currently, it's set at "Consumer" which I'm guessing is +4?

 

[eeb]

i'm using a 1010 so i'm sure the setup is the same.. I don't use -10 or +4.. in your control panel you can adjust the input levels manually and I do that... sometimes I need a bit more on one mic and less on another.. I have yet to use all the line ins at the exact same volume... it all depends on the mic/placement/what you're recording.. A loud amp won't be the same as an acoustic guitar or a room mic for drums etc etc. At least that's what i'm assuming you're talking about



*note* it's also important to know that this is very new equipment to me so if what i'm dong is a big no no then by all means let me know (i'm used to my firepod with built in preamps) but i can't see anything wrong with the i'm working it

 

[Farview]

Oddly enough, consumer is neither +4 or -10.

You should be using what ever your mic preamp is putting out.

It's been a while since i had an M-audio card, but I remember something about the inputs not being adjustable. Only the outputs. So you have the choice of outputing to a -10 or a normal stereo (consumer)

 

[eeb]

the inputs are adjustable on my 1010..... but maybe not on the audiophile rendering my comment useless

 

[danny.guitar]

So just use the preamp gain knob to get the correct levels? That's what I've been doing.

There are faders on the control panel for input level, never tried using them though. It's probably better to set the output levels with the pre, instead of the input levels on the 2496 right?

Would it be worth it to get balanced cables for this setup? Right now I'm just using guitar cables for the 1/4" outputs, then little 1/4" to RCA adapters on the ends so it fits into the sound card.

 

[pipelineaudio]

There have been some kickass " operating level " threads on here, I think with Massive Mastering contributing a bunch to the explanation IIRC.

Tangible tech's website has a good explanation as well. However, honestly, I have to say that the operating level system is based on a paradigm which is no longer exactly relevant since digital came to the market.

 

[Farview]

i'm using a 1010 so i'm sure the setup is the same.. I don't use -10 or +4.. in your control panel you can adjust the input levels manually and I do that... sometimes I need a bit more on one mic and less on another.. I have yet to use all the line ins at the exact same volume... it all depends on the mic/placement/what you're recording.. A loud amp won't be the same as an acoustic guitar or a room mic for drums etc etc. At least that's what i'm assuming you're talking about

*note* it's also important to know that this is very new equipment to me so if what i'm dong is a big no no then by all means let me know (i'm used to my firepod with built in preamps) but i can't see anything wrong with the i'm working it

Using the input faders on the control panel is a useless waste of time. The volume change happens after the converters. So, it's possible to clip the converters and then turn down the clipped audio to a sane level. But it's too late.

You are supposed to set the recording level on the preamps, not in the computer.

 

[SonicAlbert]

That's good advice from Farview. To add to his post a little, the way I'd do it is set the faders in the software to "0" and make the volume adjustments at the preamp. That way you have a pretty good idea of the actual level you are sending to the computer.

As far as the original question, "consumer" would most definitely not be +4. As far as whether -10 is consumer or not depends on what terminology M-Audio uses. They might be using "consumer" as shorthand for -10.

I'd probably use +4 myself, since the DMP3 should be able to output that hot of a signal. But the best thing would be to experiment with levels a bit and see what works best for you.

 

[Freudian Slip]

I've always understood +4 to be commercial / pro level, but I've had good results recording either way. When running live sound with lots of switchable outboard gear I feel it's more important to stick to a standard of +4.

F.S.

 

[Farview]

The problem with M-audio is that they give you two choices, -10 and consumer. it's confusing, stupid, and pretty useless.

 

[Robert D]

However, honestly, I have to say that the operating level system is based on a paradigm which is no longer exactly relevant since digital came to the market.

Hmm, I think it's still relevant as far as getting various components of a signal chain to agree on what 0dBfs is, even if the relation to dBv isn't as critical as it used to be. It still matters.

 

[Farview]

However, honestly, I have to say that the operating level system is based on a paradigm which is no longer exactly relevant since digital came to the market.

As long as there is an analog part of a signal chain, operating levels are very important. Since mics, mic preamps and the "A" part of an A/D converter are all analog, we will have to sort these things out for some time to come.

 

[Robert D]

As long as there is an analog part of a signal chain, operating levels are very important. Since mics, mic preamps and the "A" part of an A/D converter are all analog, we will have to sort these things out for some time to come.

But that's why we have USB mics now.

 

[mshilarious]

Hmm, I think it's still relevant as far as getting various components of a signal chain to agree on what 0dBfs is, even if the relation to dBv isn't as critical as it used to be. It still matters.

If manufacturers would get their acts together, all gear would be referenced to 0dBV, dBu would be relegated to the dustbin of history, and 0dBFS would be +18dBV, which conveniently allows for +-12V power supplies, and would provide a reasonable amount of headroom on a calibrated VU meter.

 

[boingoman]

If manufacturers would get their acts together, all gear would be referenced to 0dBV, dBu would be relegated to the dustbin of history, and 0dBFS would be +18dBV, which conveniently allows for +-12V power supplies, and would provide a reasonable amount of headroom on a calibrated VU meter.

They'd have to get the whole balanced thing together too.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

As long as there is an analog part of a signal chain, operating levels are very important. Since mics, mic preamps and the "A" part of an A/D converter are all analog, we will have to sort these things out for some time to come.

Amen, brother. USB mics aside (and expect to see more, not less of those), as long as there is outboard gear on the real world side of the converter, gain structure will remain a key element in quality tracking. Unfortunately it's also one of the most misunderstood - and sometimes completly unrealized - areas of the game within the "home recording" community.

If manufacturers would get their acts together

LOL, MS. While that would be nice, no one is about to start sitting around the audio engineering campfire singing "Kumbaya" (sp?) on that one . There are already a good dozen or so "standards" out there, none of which is seriously followed; adding one more law to the books isn't going to help, unfortunately.

Hell, look at A/D conversion calibration alone. Not only is it a potshot as to whether one piece of gear follows the "Ampex standard", the "SMPTE standard" the "DAT standard", the "ISO standard", one of the couple of "IEC standards", or any one of the multitude of "EBU standards", but even today that is a moving target, with new justifications given for new calibrations seemingly every NAMM season. And that's not just with new makes and models or new technologies, there are cases (e.g. Yamaha) where the calibration of one specific model depends *both* upon what year it was made and where it was meant to be sold.

Then in the prosumer market, you get companies like Presonus and Creative that don't even bother publishing such specs for their gear, as if line level voltage and A/D conversion level are just not important.

It's like trying to nail jello to a tree.

G.

 

[danny.guitar]

Hm, I know all too well what dbFS & dbVU are, but never heard of just dbV. Is it short for dbVU?

I guess I'll just leave it set at 'Consumer'.

 

[SouthSIDE Glen]

Hm, I know all too well what dbFS & dbVU are, but never heard of just dbV. Is it short for dbVU?

Nope. dBV and dBu are both actual measures of voltage, whereas dBVU is a relative calibration scale only. Here's a quick breakdown:

dBV is referenced as 0dBV = 1 volt RMS, with no reference to impedance.

dBu is referenced as 0dBu = 0.775 volts RMS into an unloaded (open) circuit.

dBVU is a relative analog scale who's calibration depends upon the operating specifications of the unit. For most analog audio record gear, 0VU is calibrated to the unit's designed input or output line level (see below), though some tape decks calibrate oVU to the magnetic saturation level of the reference tape formulation for that machine. In broadcast, 0VU often is calibrated to mean 100% modulation of the carrier signal.

For most pro or commercial gear, "line level" is considered to be +4dBu, or about 1.23 volts unloaded.

For most consumer gear, "Line level" is set to -10dBV, or about 0.32 volts.

Note that consumer line level is about 1/4th the voltage of pro line level, and also note that because pro uses dBu and consumer uses dBV, that the relative dB difference between "+4" and "-10" is actually only about 11.8 decibels, not 14.

G.

 

[mshilarious]

LOL, MS. While that would be nice, no one is about to start sitting around the audio engineering campfire singing "Kumbaya" (sp?) on that one . There are already a good dozen or so "standards" out there, none of which is seriously followed; adding one more law to the books isn't going to help, unfortunately.

<rant>

See, this is why mic manufacturers kick ass, we all use dBV Although those few freaks that are all smarmy and quote sensitivity in millivolts, they need their asses kicked. Sure, I can do the conversion, but how can they expect their customers are that clever

Another bone of contention with sorry ass preamp manufacturers--why can't they pick one, just ONE! of these three:

1) adequate headroom
2) minimum gain of 0dB. OK, how about +6dB?
3) a pad



</rant>

 

[mshilarious]

Damn, I was going to link Lionel Dumond's "dB IQ" articles, but it appears prorec.com is gone. It's just gone, man.

I'm not too surprised, as that site has been ignored for five years now, but still, for those that don't know, it was just about the best recording site ever, at least from 1999-2001, or thereabouts . . .

RIP, prorec.com, I hope it's just temporary