1 more Apex 460 mod

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PhilGood

PhilGood

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I have been giving a lot of thought as to what the problem might be with the Apex 460. I've done a few changes to the circuit and changed tubes, which improved the sound some, but the biggest difference came with the last change.

The Apex 460, Nady TCM-1150, Carvin CM100 are all the same mic, as we know. They all have a very dense 3 layer grill. I got more "wild-hair-itis" and decided to take one and remove the inner 2 layers of mesh. The result is a much smoother, bigger, open sound. It took out some of the sizzle and the mid-range is now very open and round. It used to sound very muffled in general. Sounds very open now. I really, really like it now. I believe there were too many reflections inside the housing. Only problem now is a pop-screen is a must!


Warning to anyone attempting this!! Be careful and go slow!!!! You should be able to get the job done with a needle nose and some clippers to trim the stray screen. Look for a fold by one support post and start there with a flat head screw driver. There are channels on the top and bottom rings that hold the screens in and some solder to keep it in place. I just trimmed the wire in the soldered areas.
 
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Yes, removing the inner grille layer helps some. I actually removed 2 layers from the back side of the mic, so I have an option "open" or "more open!". The difference is barely noticeable though.


I will say that by far the biggest problem with this mic is the capsule. It is fizzly and lacks body.
Replaced with a Peluso CK-12 and it sounds a million times better.

It still has some weird essing issues though, and the top and bottom could be better - I think these issues are caused by the transformer.
Soon will be replacing all the electronics with a Gyraf G7 design with Lundahl output trafo. I have a feeling it will cure this mic and turn it into a million bucks.
 
bleyrad said:
Yes, removing the inner grille layer helps some. I actually removed 2 layers from the back side of the mic, so I have an option "open" or "more open!". The difference is barely noticeable though.


I will say that by far the biggest problem with this mic is the capsule. It is fizzly and lacks body.
Replaced with a Peluso CK-12 and it sounds a million times better.

It still has some weird essing issues though, and the top and bottom could be better - I think these issues are caused by the transformer.
Soon will be replacing all the electronics with a Gyraf G7 design with Lundahl output trafo. I have a feeling it will cure this mic and turn it into a million bucks.

Do you know what the ratio for this transformer might be? I would assume since its a 12A*7 tube, it requires a 10.5:1 ratio or in that range. I'm thinking of a Cinemag trafo. I might try a better capsule later. I don't know that there's really anything wrong with the circuit since really all you have in the audio is the capsule going to the grid of the tube with the bias resistor, the tube itself, output capacitor and then the output transformer. It might be enough just to replace the capsule and trafo and leave the rest of the circuit. This is the same capsule as my M37, which has great performance. It probably just needs a cap that is tuned correctly. Maybe a larger value output capacitor. The C12 and Elam use a 3.3uF, I believe.

I think taking out the 2 inner meshes completely gave it a whole new sound. Its not muffled and the midrange has more presence.
 
you need to look at other parts of the circuit. There are a few other problems with the microphone and power supply. A lot of the questions are answered at another forum.
 
The trafo is not 10.5:1. I believe it is 2:1 or something thereabouts.
The reason is that the cathode follower is used as impedance conversion. The tube lowers the impedance before the transformer.
This is a weird design. They did this to save costs on a transformer I guess, because you can get away with a cheap transformer without a huge hit on sound quality with low ratio, but to me it sounds weird.
If you want to stick with the original circuit, I would take the cathode follower out of the equation and use a higher-ratio trafo. This will probably change the sound a lot.

What problems did you notice in the PSU Gus? I don't remember any discussion of that on GroupDIY. It seems OK to me.
 
Gus said:
you need to look at other parts of the circuit. There are a few other problems with the microphone and power supply. A lot of the questions are answered at another forum.

Wow, Gus!! You finally showed up here! Can you post where the answers are. I would love to build a G7, but would like to see if there would be a way to just replace the circuit here. I suppose I could just follow the schematic of a real AKG C12 and adapt it to 2 PC boards. I already have brass tube set aside for a G7. Don't really wanna use these mics for that.
 
bleyrad said:
The trafo is not 10.5:1. I believe it is 2:1 or something thereabouts.
The reason is that the cathode follower is used as impedance conversion. The tube lowers the impedance before the transformer.
This is a weird design. They did this to save costs on a transformer I guess, because you can get away with a cheap transformer without a huge hit on sound quality with low ratio, but to me it sounds weird.
If you want to stick with the original circuit, I would take the cathode follower out of the equation and use a higher-ratio trafo. This will probably change the sound a lot.

What problems did you notice in the PSU Gus? I don't remember any discussion of that on GroupDIY. It seems OK to me.

I suppose you could use a 4:1. I've used those for cathode follower. Cinemag doesn't make a 2:1. I would rather it not be a CF, although they have their uses. Also, isn't the Peluso CEK12 just KK67 style backplates that are edge terminated? They're not like a real CK12.

What would be the way to take out the cathode follower on this circuit? I don't have a schematic. Backplate to pin 7 and Diaphragm to pin 6 of the 12AY7?
 
PhilGood said:
Also, isn't the Peluso CEK12 just KK67 style backplates that are edge terminated? They're not like a real CK12.

Well, yeah, but it's not the name that's important... what's important is that it's the best-sounding capsule you can get for $200... seriously, it sounds amazing.
It has its own sound for sure. It's pretty bright from 10Khz on up, but has a nice body to it. Very 3D
 
bleyrad said:
Well, yeah, but it's not the name that's important... what's important is that it's the best-sounding capsule you can get for $200... seriously, it sounds amazing.
It has its own sound for sure. It's pretty bright from 10Khz on up, but has a nice body to it. Very 3D

Then I shall need to acquire some. I may never sleep with my wife again, but...

Have you used either of the smaller Peluso capsules?
 
Oh, I think I get it! You just remove the second half of the dual tube section that acts as the cathode follower! Now I just have to figure out which part that is.

BTW Dave Thomas, who modifies these mics up in Canada claims the 460's output trafo is 8:1.

I still think I'm going to try and make this work off the C12 schematic. Tell me if I'm crazy. I'll try and use a Peluso CEK12, if not, a 797 6 micron 34mm.
 
I measured 11:1 on mine as you can see from the schematic. With a 10:1 or more removing the CF works fine. don't wire that fil half and ground the plate grid and cathode removing the cathode resistor. Connect the plate of the 1st half of the tube to the transformer with a good cap, 1uf poly what ever at 250V. The 34mm tenlux seem to have a nice sound.
 
Gus said:
I measured 11:1 on mine as you can see from the schematic. With a 10:1 or more removing the CF works fine. don't wire that fil half and ground the plate grid and cathode removing the cathode resistor. Connect the plate of the 1st half of the tube to the transformer with a good cap, 1uf poly what ever at 250V. The 34mm tenlux seem to have a nice sound.

So the Nady 1050 and 1150 are the same circuit in different housings. That's what I thought!

OK Gus, I know what to do. Where do you get tenlux capsules?

Skip, if the ADK has a 797 34mm, doesn't it sound ok to begin with?
 
Yeah, it sounds ok..... but why stop there? Meanwhile I can actually hear myself going broke.

Gus - Thanks for clarifying the CF removal process. Why not keep the second triode connected as feedback, as in the C12 circuit? Doesn't that contribute something to the sound? I've read so many audiophool discussion of feedback vs. zero feedback, and I still don't understand the arguments. I will probably have to try it both ways and decide.
 
Hi Bleyrad, the transformer is 10.5:1 as I measured it for David at Cinemag to find an appropriate substitution which is the CM-2480.

The cathode follower circuit is brilliant it does lower the output impedance and increases the damping factor so the economical Chinese output transformer becomes quite useable. My RCA tube manual which I have owned since 1966 states, that the cathode follower does not increase gain but rather provides a lower output impedance with less distortion that typical plate coupled circuits this lower output impedance increase the damping factor and provide a better transient response. Because there is no plate resistor with the cathode follower it will provide a larger peak to peak output voltage than the plate coupled circuit. It is the output circuit used in very high end "HiFi" tube preamps like Macintosh and Marantz that were built in the 50's and 60's.

The stock transformer is still inferior to the Cinemag but quite useable on vocals and guitars with a 6072a tube substituted for the 12AX7 that is supplied with these microphone when they are stock. The output transformer is just hit too hard with a 12AX7 tube. I measure an increase of 6-8db of headroom with a 6072a. The stock Chinese transformer starts to distort a +12dbm while the Cinemag will handle +18dbm before distortion and with a 6072a the microphone will output +18dbm before distortion. However, the typical operating output of the microphone is usually around -20 to -30db with a 6072a.

The circuit was designed around the AKG C12 circuit which uses a 6072a and and the only difference is the second half of the tube in the 460 is uses as a cathode follower. However, ALCTRON the Chinese manufacturer of the M-16/460 and Nady TCM 1150 build these to a price point and substitute cheaper 12AX7b tubes even though the specification say selected 12AT7 (6072a). This is even wrong as a 6072a is a 12AY7 NOT a 12AT7. The 12AX7 has the most gain (100), the 12AT7(66) has less gain and the 12AY7(6072a) has even less gain(44).

I have not found any problems with the power supply other than the odd bad solder connection or the line voltage switch set to the wrong setting and one defective 6v filament regulator. I have had 3-power supply problems out of nearly 100 microphones that we have upgraded.

Removing the inner screen is not a good idea. the microphone will shut down earlier from moist air blasts on vocals, it will pop sooner and the 5 micron capsule will get contaminated with dirt particals a lot sooner.

With the cathode follower circuit the output acts more like the VF14 used in the U47 which has a lower output impedance. Also the 6072a will deliver more current than the 12AX7 and this also accounts for the increase in headroom.

If the tube is upgraded and you have a ALCTRON capsule that is reasonably smooth (they all have a lift at centered as 2.7khz but some are brighter than others) then the microphone is quite useable and I really like it on acoustic instruments and for miking the room.

With a Peluso capsule installed and Cinemag output transformer the microphone moves into a completely differrent realm. It will compete with microphones in the $3500 range and above. One client who I built an Advanced Audio CM-12 (460/Peluso CEK-12/Cinemag CM-2480) now uses the CM-12 50% of the time on vocals and his Neumann 149 the other 50% of the time.

Like any high quality large diaphragm condenser microphone the response smoothes out in OMNI and even with a stock capsule the microphone will work very well on most vocals in OMNI with a 6072a tube but you must have a "real" studio with good acoustics and good isolation.

In a typical project studio were I cannot use OMNI then I use the microphone one or two stops toward OMNI from Cardiod and it starts to smooth out the response. However, now I have several upgraded 460 microphones with Peluso CEK-89/CEK-12 and CEK-367 capsules and these give me a sound that is close enough to the original "Classics" for rock & roll". John Peluso recently told me that Muscle Shoals are now replacing worn out capsules in their original Telefunken U47 microphones with CEK-367 capsules and are very pleased with the results.

We will glady upgrade any 460/TCM-1150 or TCM-1050 for folks with Peluso capsules and Cinemag transformers.

Best regards, Dave Thomas (Advanced Audio Microphones)

bleyrad said:
The trafo is not 10.5:1. I believe it is 2:1 or something thereabouts.
The reason is that the cathode follower is used as impedance conversion. The tube lowers the impedance before the transformer.
This is a weird design. They did this to save costs on a transformer I guess, because you can get away with a cheap transformer without a huge hit on sound quality with low ratio, but to me it sounds weird.
If you want to stick with the original circuit, I would take the cathode follower out of the equation and use a higher-ratio trafo. This will probably change the sound a lot.

What problems did you notice in the PSU Gus? I don't remember any discussion of that on GroupDIY. It seems OK to me.
 
You guys seem to know alot about the inner workings of the apex 460. I have one that doesent work. AFter swapping parts around with another one I have found it is the power supply tat is the issue. I poked around inside with my dmm and found the 200 volts is more like 150. Other than that all the components look good and the fuse is not blown. OWuld you guys know of where I should start looking to try and figure this out?
 
Sheesh, I used to post some stupid things years ago. Oh well, I have learned so much since then.

Kelly - The little three term regulator on a heatsink in the power supply box is providing the filament voltage. Should read 6.3V on its output, stock. Of course, you could power up the mic with its body off, and observe the tube filaments directly. Do they glow like normal tube operation?
 
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After I read your message I did some research on the net to learn about tubes. I noticed the tube wasnt warm at all. found 6.3 was actually .5 volts. i pulled out the transformer leads form the board and found that the 10vac secondary had 1.5 megs across it. I find it quite amazing how you automaticly knew where to start looking!

This to me sonds like a power transformer that has puked.... Does this seem right to you also?

I found a source for the parts here in canada... they say 20 bucks canadian for the new xfrmr. I figured that sounds pretty reasonable....

I appreciate all your help
 
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