002R for recording?

[bennychico11]

Pros:
Not get software upgrades without purchasing new hardware...etc.

this is incorrect.
You can get software updates without buying new hardware. The only two recent LE systems that have required hardware upgrades are the 001 and Mbox. But that is because Digi is trying to move on and in order for them to they need to stop supporting certain products in their line to make newer ones.

 

[mrT]

Not get software upgrades without purchasing new hardware...

this is incorrect.

ok...

The only two recent LE systems that have required hardware upgrades are ...

What??????

Doesn't that mean I was actually correct.

 

[pandamonk]

this is incorrect.
You can get software updates without buying new hardware. The only two recent LE systems that have required hardware upgrades are the 001 and Mbox. But that is because Digi is trying to move on and in order for them to they need to stop supporting certain products in their line to make newer ones.

But don't you have to pay for each upgrade, which they release all the time? They release 7, so you buy it, then a few weeks/months later 7.1 or something, then 7.1.1, then 7.1.2 and you gotta pay to upgrade to each. Isn't it at like 7.3.1 now? And then once you're working protools and have a good grasp of it, you gotta join their courses, which are constantly changing, to become qualified to use it, or noone will employ you(aparantly).

You start with 101-$495, then 110-$995, 201-$695, 210M-$1095(finally you're considered an operator in music), or 210P-$1095(operator in post production), then 310M-$1595(expert in music), 310P-$1595(expert in post), or 310I-$1595(icon control, whatever that is).

You must do 101, 110, 201, and either of the 210s to be considered an operator, then one of the 310s to be an expert. Total = $4875.00(if you pass each first time, which you probably won't) to become an expert in one area of production with protools. My college offers these exams.

We have a lecturer who works for Protools, testing all their new releases etc. He has used Protools since one of their first releases. He knows more about protools than almost anyone in the UK, and he's just on the 110, or 201 just now. He's not even considered an operator yet!! I don't think anyone has passed these exams first time at my college, which adds yet more money to the total. I didn't bother with the courses, and I'm glad i stayed away. Complete waste of time and money!

Rant over

 

[bennychico11]

ok...



What??????

Doesn't that mean I was actually correct.

no. because the 001 is one of the older hardware units from Digi anyway. Every company ends up phasing out their equipment at one time or another. A company can't develop new hardware and also be expected to maintain their older hardware for forever. Technology changes and you can't expect your older hardware to be compatible with the latest processors and software that is out there for forever. Pretty soon even PCI cards won't be supported anymore in computers.

The 001 had a good run. It was THE LE unit for many years, then Digi made the 002 and said "okay, we're going to go this route now people. We'll support the 001 for awhile, but soon we'll have to concentrate on our newer systems."

I shouldn't have mentioned the Mbox in my above post. So far it's still compatible with the latest version of Pro Tools...even though you can't buy it in store anymore. But don't expect that to last forever either.

But don't you have to pay for each upgrade, which they release all the time? They release 7, so you buy it, then a few weeks/months later 7.1 or something, then 7.1.1, then 7.1.2 and you gotta pay to upgrade to each. Isn't it at like 7.3.1 now?

You pay for the major upgrades. The rest have been CS updates and minor fixes. Awhile ago I paid something like 30 bucks to go from 5.1 to 6.4. Upgrades on my other system to 6.9 were free. Then they released a crap load of more options for 7.0 and you did have to pay for that. Then 7.3 was the next major update you had to pay for. However, no one said you HAD to have this upgrades. Just if you wanted more options and features you did. It's just the way Digi does business. If you don't like it, don't buy PT. But I don't expect a company to give me new features for free.

And then once you're working protools and have a good grasp of it, you gotta join their courses, which are constantly changing, to become qualified to use it, or noone will employ you(aparantly).

I know about the certification courses But again, you don't HAVE to go through the certification courses. I know many engineers who have never done them and still know Pro Tools very well. However, I myself have done the certification courses and am glad I did. I learned in a very short time A LOT about Pro Tools and although it didn't guarantee me the job I have now, it sure helped me prove myself in the studio. I was asked at the interview if I knew how to use Pro Tools, I said I had taken the certification courses and the boss took that as a yes. I could have well just lied about it, but I probably wouldn't have been able to handle my own in session if I hadn't. And at least I can call items in Pro Tools by their correct name. So I'm not calling it the "A-Z" button around other engineers There are lots of smaller studios around town with Pro Tools setups and engineers working them who just learn as they go. I've gotten several calls from these studios with questions on setting them up or how to fix something.

I'm certified in both post and music...and have taken all the way through the 210P/M. And I've considered the expert courses, however they're not as easy to find where I live. I passed all my classes and passed all the certification exams. Only having to do the 210P exam twice because I was 2 questions away from passing it the first time. You'd be surprised at the minute details they expect you to remember. But it didn't cost any extra, I just had to retake it. I don't know if those costs are quite accurate...but maybe so. It was all just lumped into the rest of my recording classes.

Funny you went on a rant about the certification courses. They're only optional if you want to learn more about PT. You can just grab a DVD, the manual and an LE setup and probably learn the same. But you wouldn't get hands on time with an HD setup and all the Digi accessories. Everyone learns a different way though.

 

[pandamonk]

no. because the 001 is one of the older hardware units from Digi anyway. Every company ends up phasing out their equipment at one time or another. A company can't develop new hardware and also be expected to maintain their older hardware for forever. Technology changes and you can't expect your older hardware to be compatible with the latest processors and software that is out there for forever. Pretty soon even PCI cards won't be supported anymore in computers.

The 001 had a good run. It was THE LE unit for many years, then Digi made the 002 and said "okay, we're going to go this route now people. We'll support the 001 for awhile, but soon we'll have to concentrate on our newer systems."

I shouldn't have mentioned the Mbox in my above post. So far it's still compatible with the latest version of Pro Tools...even though you can't buy it in store anymore. But don't expect that to last forever either.




You pay for the major upgrades. The rest have been CS updates and minor fixes. Awhile ago I paid something like 30 bucks to go from 5.1 to 6.4. Upgrades on my other system to 6.9 were free. Then they released a crap load of more options for 7.0 and you did have to pay for that. Then 7.3 was the next major update you had to pay for. However, no one said you HAD to have this upgrades. Just if you wanted more options and features you did. It's just the way Digi does business. If you don't like it, don't buy PT. But I don't expect a company to give me new features for free.



I know about the certification courses But again, you don't HAVE to go through the certification courses. I know many engineers who have never done them and still know Pro Tools very well. However, I myself have done the certification courses and am glad I did. I learned in a very short time A LOT about Pro Tools and although it didn't guarantee me the job I have now, it sure helped me prove myself in the studio. I was asked at the interview if I knew how to use Pro Tools, I said I had taken the certification courses and the boss took that as a yes. I could have well just lied about it, but I probably wouldn't have been able to handle my own in session if I hadn't. And at least I can call items in Pro Tools by their correct name. So I'm not calling it the "A-Z" button around other engineers There are lots of smaller studios around town with Pro Tools setups and engineers working them who just learn as they go. I've gotten several calls from these studios with questions on setting them up or how to fix something.

I'm certified in both post and music...and have taken all the way through the 210P/M. And I've considered the expert courses, however they're not as easy to find where I live. I passed all my classes and passed all the certification exams. Only having to do the 210P exam twice because I was 2 questions away from passing it the first time. You'd be surprised at the minute details they expect you to remember. But it didn't cost any extra, I just had to retake it. I don't know if those costs are quite accurate...but maybe so. It was all just lumped into the rest of my recording classes.

Funny you went on a rant about the certification courses. They're only optional if you want to learn more about PT. You can just grab a DVD, the manual and an LE setup and probably learn the same. But you wouldn't get hands on time with an HD setup and all the Digi accessories. Everyone learns a different way though.

I just don't like Digidesign. Everything costs way more than it should, IMO. $8k for HD1 pci card, and software, then you gotta buy then converter 96 i/o $2k. You've spent $10 before you've even thought about mics, preamps, computer, monitors, acoustics etc. Yes, there is LE, but it's nowhere near the standard of TDM, and even rival companies Sonar, Cubase etc. The only good move i think they made was m-powered, but even this is limited. It's got no more than LE, and it's limited to m-audio.

I dislike the courses, 'cause it decreases creativity, IMO. Instead of finding things out yourself, and each having their own creative techniques etc, they're trying to make everyone the same. Ok you learn and know a lot more, a lot quicker, and to a standard, which is good, it costs a lot, reduces creativity, and like you said, they expect you to remember so many minute details, which is bad.

I got the costs from a Centre for Pro Tools. They were the first i found, with displayed costs.

 

[bennychico11]

I just don't like Digidesign. Everything costs way more than it should, IMO. $8k for HD1 pci card, and software, then you gotta buy then converter 96 i/o $2k. You've spent $10 before you've even thought about mics, preamps, computer, monitors, acoustics etc. Yes, there is LE, but it's nowhere near the standard of TDM, and even rival companies Sonar, Cubase etc. The only good move i think they made was m-powered, but even this is limited. It's got no more than LE, and it's limited to m-audio.

To each his own I guess. The cost is expensive...but so is a 96 channel console. And maybe most studios think compared to a half a million dollar console, an HD3 isn't that bad.
But it really all comes down to preference. I'm not 100% happy with Digi's business practices either, but I continue to use their products because I like them. They were the first big software/hardware company I had experience with and it just seemed the software clicked with me a lot quicker than any other one.
Your prices are a little skewed since you're looking at suggest retail. You can buy an HD2 on ebay for about $7k

I dislike the courses, 'cause it decreases creativity, IMO. Instead of finding things out yourself, and each having their own creative techniques etc, they're trying to make everyone the same. Ok you learn and know a lot more, a lot quicker, and to a standard, which is good, it costs a lot, reduces creativity, and like you said, they expect you to remember so many minute details, which is bad.

I disagree. I think those minute things are key. Because when the time comes that you need that one little thing, you're not pulling out the manual or posting on the forums asking about it. I get so many questions about trashing the prefs or how to route to a hardware compressor or why someone's losing their region selection after pressing stop. I don't think learning that simple stuff ever sifles creativity. You have to learn it somehow...and why would you not want to learn it correctly the first time? If anything I would think getting that simple stuff out of the way at the beginning allows you to be more creative sooner. Ever do something one way for so long and then realize later down the road you could have done it in another way which would have made things faster and less painful for you?
For example, someone who doesn't understand why their losing their region selection everytime they press stop. For weeks or months they may just think it's the way Pro Tools works or it's a glitch...and so they just deal with it and just reselect the region every time. Then on the forums they come across someone talking about the "edit insertion follows playback" button. One simple button could have made things less frustrating all that time.

Like I said, people learn in different ways. Apparently you're in school doing recording now? Why is taking classes on how to use a large format console any different than taking classes on a software program? Couldn't you just learn the console by trial and error? Some people learn better in a class room setting, others learn better from a DVD or just by reading a manual. Heck you can buy the Pro Tools 101 course book and DVD for $50 if you want to do that.

 

[mrT]

no. because the 001 is one of the older hardware units from Digi anyway. Every company ends up phasing out their equipment at one time or another. A company can't develop new hardware and also be expected to maintain their older hardware for forever. Technology changes and you can't expect your older hardware to be compatible with the latest processors and software that is out there for forever. Pretty soon even PCI cards won't be supported anymore in computers.

The 001 had a good run. It was THE LE unit for many years, then Digi made the 002 and said "okay, we're going to go this route now people. We'll support the 001 for awhile, but soon we'll have to concentrate on our newer systems."

I shouldn't have mentioned the Mbox in my above post. So far it's still compatible with the latest version of Pro Tools...even though you can't buy it in store anymore. But don't expect that to last forever either.

You really don't seem to see my point. No matter what the reason they did it... or how many times. If they did it at least once then I was correct. pretty simple.

You kinda sound like a protools salesman too. Just keep in mind that some people just don't like it. Sorry it hurts your feelings.

 

[bennychico11]

You really don't seem to see my point. No matter what the reason they did it... or how many times. If they did it at least once then I was correct. pretty simple.

You kinda sound like a protools salesman too. Just keep in mind that some people just don't like it. Sorry it hurts your feelings.

hahah

yes, they have done it once. Actually they've really done it more than once if you include the TDM stuff as well...or the old Audiomedia card. But guess what, so has every other company out there. I've got an old Power Macintosh 6100 sitting around...why can't I install Mac OSX on it? I have old 5.25" discs I'd like to install on my dual core Windows XP computer...why doesn't Dell sell any 5.25" drives with their computers?

Wake up man, technology needs to advance. And in order to advance companies need to stop building software code, drivers, hardware add-ons, etc. for their oldest products.
Yes, I guess if you want to split hairs you were correct. About one instance of this happening. But your comment was so general that new users of Pro Tools may think "oh wow, no matter which unit I buy I have to upgrade my hardware every time they release new software updates."
Why can't your cell phone from 2000 play MP3s or share pix?

and no I'm not a salesman for Digi. I've never ONCE told anyone they should buy Pro Tools. I've even actually told people to stray away from Pro Tools if I thought something else would be better for them. I don't care what software people prefer to use....it's a friggin' tool man. Who cares?!

 

[mrT]

hahah

...

I don't care what software people prefer to use....it's a friggin' tool man. Who cares?!

That's what I'm saying too... you just seemed to take my comments about protools personally.

That's for admiting I was right...

So do you know if the next version of protools will work on the 002? or is that going to be progress in action? I'm kinda curious. My friend just got a 002 rack, But I know the 003 is out.

 

[MessianicDreams]

You really don't seem to see my point. No matter what the reason they did it... or how many times. If they did it at least once then I was correct. pretty simple

There are plenty of other companies who phazed out support for their legacy equipment and plenty of gear that no longer has the correct drivers etc to run on modern machines.

I just don't like Digidesign. Everything costs way more than it should, IMO. $8k for HD1 pci card, and software, then you gotta buy then converter 96 i/o $2k. You've spent $10 before you've even thought about mics, preamps, computer, monitors, acoustics etc. Yes, there is LE, but it's nowhere near the standard of TDM, and even rival companies Sonar, Cubase etc. The only good move i think they made was m-powered, but even this is limited. It's got no more than LE, and it's limited to m-audio.

Sure, Pro Tools has it's downsides...however, of all the commercial studios i've set foot in, iether as client or employee, all have been based on PT systems. And sure you can rant and rave about how shit PT is for homerecordist, but at the end of the day when you and me step foot into a commercial studio I'll know perfectly how to use PT and you won't have a friggin clue

 

[mrT]

...but at the end of the day when you and me step foot into a commercial studio I'll know perfectly how to use PT and you won't have a friggin clue

I atually DO know how to run a session in PT. I just would rather not if I don't have to. To me it's a work flow issue.

 

[pandamonk]

To each his own I guess. The cost is expensive...but so is a 96 channel console. And maybe most studios think compared to a half a million dollar console, an HD3 isn't that bad.
But it really all comes down to preference. I'm not 100% happy with Digi's business practices either, but I continue to use their products because I like them. They were the first big software/hardware company I had experience with and it just seemed the software clicked with me a lot quicker than any other one.
Your prices are a little skewed since you're looking at suggest retail. You can buy an HD2 on ebay for about $7k

I just did a quick search for the card in google.com/products, of which the cheapest that came up was $8k, however I understand that it can be cheaper.

I disagree. I think those minute things are key. Because when the time comes that you need that one little thing, you're not pulling out the manual or posting on the forums asking about it. I get so many questions about trashing the prefs or how to route to a hardware compressor or why someone's losing their region selection after pressing stop. I don't think learning that simple stuff ever sifles creativity. You have to learn it somehow...and why would you not want to learn it correctly the first time? If anything I would think getting that simple stuff out of the way at the beginning allows you to be more creative sooner. Ever do something one way for so long and then realize later down the road you could have done it in another way which would have made things faster and less painful for you?
For example, someone who doesn't understand why their losing their region selection everytime they press stop. For weeks or months they may just think it's the way Pro Tools works or it's a glitch...and so they just deal with it and just reselect the region every time. Then on the forums they come across someone talking about the "edit insertion follows playback" button. One simple button could have made things less frustrating all that time.

Like I said, people learn in different ways. Apparently you're in school doing recording now? Why is taking classes on how to use a large format console any different than taking classes on a software program? Couldn't you just learn the console by trial and error? Some people learn better in a class room setting, others learn better from a DVD or just by reading a manual. Heck you can buy the Pro Tools 101 course book and DVD for $50 if you want to do that.

I've just left college. They don't really teach much in a classroom setting. Infact they don't teach much at all, haha. They mostly tell you what they want, then let you go do it yourself. I've learned a hell of a lot this way, and it has inspired me to setup my own business. Anyway, pro tools top end gear/courses are great if you can afford them, but for the average homerecordist, stuck with LE or M-powered, it ain't so great, IMO.

 

[pandamonk]

Sure, Pro Tools has it's downsides...however, of all the commercial studios i've set foot in, iether as client or employee, all have been based on PT systems. And sure you can rant and rave about how shit PT is for homerecordist, but at the end of the day when you and me step foot into a commercial studio I'll know perfectly how to use PT and you won't have a friggin clue

I used pro tools on and off for 2 years, so i do know how to work it. I don't by anymeans know all the shortcuts/exactly how everything works, but i can find my way around. Not every commercial studio runs pro tools, but you're right about the majority.