Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
How does this mix sound?
If that link doesn't work, it's the first song here:
Thanks for listening
If that link doesn't work, it's the first song here:
Thanks for listening
Building a Fire
- Thread starter Monkey Allen
- Start date
dobro
Well-known member
Really, really like this one. Every little bit of it fits, moves right, sounds good. Are those backing vocals, or something that sounds like backing vocals? Doesn't matter - it works. Just an earbud listen (I'm travelling) but no mix nits. Played it three times. Five stars.
(As for the song, I'm reading it as fitting the times. Maybe that's just me reading stuff into it cuz that's how I'm feeling nowadays. But I'll put up a tune in a few days that echoes that - see if the sentiment resonates.)
Anyway, sterling work, sir. Why aren't you rich and famous? Hm, maybe you *are* rich and famous and you're just hiding out here to entertain yourself?
(As for the song, I'm reading it as fitting the times. Maybe that's just me reading stuff into it cuz that's how I'm feeling nowadays. But I'll put up a tune in a few days that echoes that - see if the sentiment resonates.)
Anyway, sterling work, sir. Why aren't you rich and famous? Hm, maybe you *are* rich and famous and you're just hiding out here to entertain yourself?
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Thanks fellas...
Yeah dobro there's backing vocals in a few sections and there's a kind of Rhodes organ in some places. And yeah...fitting the times, ha, I think so! Kind of like one big dumpster fire really
Yeah dobro there's backing vocals in a few sections and there's a kind of Rhodes organ in some places. And yeah...fitting the times, ha, I think so! Kind of like one big dumpster fire really
HumanPlanet
*Gen Xer*
Loving this song, great lyrics, musicianship etc. right up my alley!
Now I know I'm going to sound like an a-hole but I'm not feeling the mix at all. In my opinion (for what it's worth) you've taken a song that should be big and in your face and smothered it. All the elements are there to make this song massive and instead the mix makes it tiny and boxed in.
Take another listen to the balance, it's off everywhere. Rethink the focus, for me get that snare cracking and bring it forward (along with the whole drum kit maybe). Eq needs tweaking and open up the whole thing by reworking the reverb. Let the song take off and fly don't clamp it down to the ground!
I'm hearing something more like this (which is 30% to where I think it should go)
View attachment Building A Fire (Tom Petty Inspired Late 80's Redux).mp3
This is a REALLY good song and you're close to making it sound great but for me, your mix isn't there yet.
Now I know I'm going to sound like an a-hole but I'm not feeling the mix at all. In my opinion (for what it's worth) you've taken a song that should be big and in your face and smothered it. All the elements are there to make this song massive and instead the mix makes it tiny and boxed in.
Take another listen to the balance, it's off everywhere. Rethink the focus, for me get that snare cracking and bring it forward (along with the whole drum kit maybe). Eq needs tweaking and open up the whole thing by reworking the reverb. Let the song take off and fly don't clamp it down to the ground!
I'm hearing something more like this (which is 30% to where I think it should go)
View attachment Building A Fire (Tom Petty Inspired Late 80's Redux).mp3
This is a REALLY good song and you're close to making it sound great but for me, your mix isn't there yet.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Yeah Human Planet...the drums probably should hit a bit harder and sharper. Not really sure what you mean by the balance is off everywhere. I mean its a reasonably OK listen and things gel pretty ok. I'm the first to admit that I'm not an experienced mixer and my main aim is to just get some kind of ok mix. I'm nowhere near a level where I can start making my mixes creative etc.
In the clip you had there the song sounds louder. That's the first thing I notice. I pretty much mix all my songs at like -14lufs or so. Pretty conservative in the loudness scramble. My songs are routinely much quieter than stuff my friends do or home recording stuff I regularly hear online. Louder makes it good. I'm not saying your clip is only louder. Just that it is louder...and so more striking or something.
I'd be keen to hear anyone else's view is though. Don't worry, I don't take it that you sound like an A hole. You have a point. I just don't think that the balance being off everywhere is completely on the money and I suspect that louder mixdowns often appear better.
But I'll sure give what you said a go. This is the first mix. All the reverb on the guitars is baked in so I won't be able to change that much.
In the clip you had there the song sounds louder. That's the first thing I notice. I pretty much mix all my songs at like -14lufs or so. Pretty conservative in the loudness scramble. My songs are routinely much quieter than stuff my friends do or home recording stuff I regularly hear online. Louder makes it good. I'm not saying your clip is only louder. Just that it is louder...and so more striking or something.
I'd be keen to hear anyone else's view is though. Don't worry, I don't take it that you sound like an A hole. You have a point. I just don't think that the balance being off everywhere is completely on the money and I suspect that louder mixdowns often appear better.
But I'll sure give what you said a go. This is the first mix. All the reverb on the guitars is baked in so I won't be able to change that much.
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dachay2tnr
One Hit Wonder
Nice. I like this. But needs more bass and drums. I can hear the bass, but it doesn't drive this like it should. But I mostly like it.
HumanPlanet
*Gen Xer*
Greetings Monkey Allen and if I may say it again, this song is right up my alley!
Perceived loudness is often achieved in the mix! This is a meaningless statement, the first file I posted was louder.
Here's the 2 files 'nearly' level matched. Yours is as it came to me when downloaded at -12.3 LUFS Integrated (-0.9 TPM) and mine is now at -13.3 LUFS Integrated (-2.8 TPM) so yours is louder and should sound better!
Yours:
View attachment Building A Fire Original.mp3
And mine (Late 80's Tom Petty inspired, thanks RFR):
View attachment Building A Fire Redux.mp3
What do you think? I don't think there's a 'better', just different.
I really do like the song but when I said the balance is off I meant that also, not to be 'mean' but it's what I hear (or don't hear when listening at very low levels
). I don't think the balance is massively off, it just isn't there yet and something to look at to improve the mix (and I concede that it's not technically possible for the balance to be off everywhere as at least one track has to be the 'reference' so it can't really be off ).
Don't give what I said a go just because I said it, it's your project and you should take it in whatever direction you want, that was just where I'd go with it (and the reverb on the guitars wasn't necessarily an issue in itself, it was a lack of reverb elsewhere for me, among other things).
Just as a matter of interest, what sound were you aiming for when you started mixing the song? Did you have any sound/reference in mind or are you mixing blind and seeing where you end up. Just wondering...
Perceived loudness is often achieved in the mix! This is a meaningless statement, the first file I posted was louder.
Here's the 2 files 'nearly' level matched. Yours is as it came to me when downloaded at -12.3 LUFS Integrated (-0.9 TPM) and mine is now at -13.3 LUFS Integrated (-2.8 TPM) so yours is louder and should sound better!
Yours:
View attachment Building A Fire Original.mp3
And mine (Late 80's Tom Petty inspired, thanks RFR):
View attachment Building A Fire Redux.mp3
What do you think? I don't think there's a 'better', just different.
I really do like the song but when I said the balance is off I meant that also, not to be 'mean' but it's what I hear (or don't hear when listening at very low levels
). I don't think the balance is massively off, it just isn't there yet and something to look at to improve the mix (and I concede that it's not technically possible for the balance to be off everywhere as at least one track has to be the 'reference' so it can't really be off ).Don't give what I said a go just because I said it, it's your project and you should take it in whatever direction you want, that was just where I'd go with it (and the reverb on the guitars wasn't necessarily an issue in itself, it was a lack of reverb elsewhere for me, among other things).
Just as a matter of interest, what sound were you aiming for when you started mixing the song? Did you have any sound/reference in mind or are you mixing blind and seeing where you end up. Just wondering...
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Hey Human...yeah don't get me wrong...I'm not offended and I don't think you're being mean or anything. I post my stuff here to learn like everyone else. Before I get to my comments about your version I wanna say that I come from quite a novice point of view. Literally because I have limited experience, I'm limited in how good or bad a mix of mine is at any given time...or how the mix seems to me. Like...should I go more in this direction? Should I do this, this...or this?? I'm kind of treading a balance where if I try to push more towards brighter drums or smackier drums or more compressed guitar...or whatever the case may be, I don't really have a solid frame of reference as to how far to go or not to go. I get that "good" sounds good and I should only worry about that...but for me, mixing is a really tough game and well, yeah...I can't say I have a solid bead on it yet. Probably, because of many past mixing tragedies, I tend to be conservative? Not sure.
Now I hear that what you've done makes the song 'get across' more than my version. My rhythm guitar sounds a bit boxy or something...yours sounds like you've removed some mud down in that area. (I know you're only able to work the stereo mix) Your drums have more excitement than mine, especially the hats. You've also made the vocal more attractive or urgent I guess. Your mix seems a little wider too. Overall I think that's a good word to use...you've made the track more urgent. It is an urgent track but you're right, my mix doesn't sell it enough. Yours does. I also wanna say that yeah I agree with what you said about perceived loudness and how its achieved in the mix. Side note...I made a thread here somewhere a while ago about how and why professional songs sound much louder, punchier and all that than mine even though they report a lower overall LUFS than mine. So, me citing LUFS isn't really that meaningful.
So for this song, I initially had in mind 'Let there Be Rock' by ACDC for the kind of guitar sound and drum feel. I listened to that song several times to get an idea for how I wanted my song to sound. That's what I was basically going for in the first couple of verses and chorus bit up until the breakdown kind of bit. At that point I had in mind something like a cross between standard 50's rock and Chuck Berry...and the song pretty much finished with a lot of Chuck Berry 12 bar sounding stuff.
When I mixed the song I wanted it kind of aggressive and loud. That's pretty much it. I wanted all the bits to gel well of course. But, yeah, I can see from the way you've been able to treat just the mp3 stereo mix that there's a lot more I could do track by track in the mix. I haven't brought out the song enough. I can see that now...and as I said before I'd say it's because with mixing I'm still very much feeling my way...conscious of not going over the top...but at the cost, evidently, of not going quite far enough.
So, I'll get in there and tweak things. I guess as a basic approach I'd:
- give more energy to the drums...a little more high end/ brightness
- scoop out some of the low mid (I think) boxiness from the rhythm guitar...and also turn it down a fraction...I think it's in the way of the drums
- do something to the vocal to give it more energy (but I'm not sure what)
- improve reverb as you said...but I'm not sure where. The guitars and organ bits had reverb baked in already.
So, if you care to...does this sound about right? What would you do? Care to elaborate a little more?
Appreciate your advice
Now I hear that what you've done makes the song 'get across' more than my version. My rhythm guitar sounds a bit boxy or something...yours sounds like you've removed some mud down in that area. (I know you're only able to work the stereo mix) Your drums have more excitement than mine, especially the hats. You've also made the vocal more attractive or urgent I guess. Your mix seems a little wider too. Overall I think that's a good word to use...you've made the track more urgent. It is an urgent track but you're right, my mix doesn't sell it enough. Yours does. I also wanna say that yeah I agree with what you said about perceived loudness and how its achieved in the mix. Side note...I made a thread here somewhere a while ago about how and why professional songs sound much louder, punchier and all that than mine even though they report a lower overall LUFS than mine. So, me citing LUFS isn't really that meaningful.
So for this song, I initially had in mind 'Let there Be Rock' by ACDC for the kind of guitar sound and drum feel. I listened to that song several times to get an idea for how I wanted my song to sound. That's what I was basically going for in the first couple of verses and chorus bit up until the breakdown kind of bit. At that point I had in mind something like a cross between standard 50's rock and Chuck Berry...and the song pretty much finished with a lot of Chuck Berry 12 bar sounding stuff.
When I mixed the song I wanted it kind of aggressive and loud. That's pretty much it. I wanted all the bits to gel well of course. But, yeah, I can see from the way you've been able to treat just the mp3 stereo mix that there's a lot more I could do track by track in the mix. I haven't brought out the song enough. I can see that now...and as I said before I'd say it's because with mixing I'm still very much feeling my way...conscious of not going over the top...but at the cost, evidently, of not going quite far enough.
So, I'll get in there and tweak things. I guess as a basic approach I'd:
- give more energy to the drums...a little more high end/ brightness
- scoop out some of the low mid (I think) boxiness from the rhythm guitar...and also turn it down a fraction...I think it's in the way of the drums
- do something to the vocal to give it more energy (but I'm not sure what)
- improve reverb as you said...but I'm not sure where. The guitars and organ bits had reverb baked in already.
So, if you care to...does this sound about right? What would you do? Care to elaborate a little more?
Appreciate your advice
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dobro
Well-known member
I love this song, plus this is a real mix discussion, PLUS I'm back home now and can listen through my monitors and cans instead of these finicky damn earbuds. So life is good. I'll weigh in, but if I can't hear a difference, that's significant in itself - it doesn't mean there isn't a difference, it just means it's not a very big difference.
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
I've just finished a second mix. I'll add it to my soundcloud as "Building a Fire 2". I'm not sure that it gets MUCH better than the 1st mix...but I think it is better.
HumanPlanet...looking at the mix again I noticed the drums had no reverb on them at all, the main vocal had only a little bit of spring reverb and the back up vocals had no reverb at all.
The remix is basically:
- added a tad more spring reverb to vocal plus another room reverb and added a little more volume
- took out some of what I thought was boxiness in main rhythm guitar...and lower the volume a tad
- took out a bit of bass guitar that seemed to be adding to guitar boxiness
- added a small amount of stereo widening
- used master bus eq to take out some low mid and add some up around 6khz
- added a little bump at around 90hz on the master bus eq
- added small amount of reverb to drums and made them brighter and a bit louder
- added reverb to back up vocals
- made the whole track slightly louder
That's roughly it. I didn't make any massive moves or changes...just a tweak here and there just pushing it in the direction suggested by HumanPlanet.
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dobro
Well-known member
Yeah, do it. I've just got back home and turned on the monitors. I'm going through the thread and the mixes and I'm gonna learn something. What I've noticed so far is that on mix 1, there's very little difference between playing it back in mono or stereo. How much does that matter? (I'm asking, not opining. My guess is: it matters a bit, but not a lot.)
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Good point. And I noticed that HumanPlanet's mix was wider. I mean it should still sound good in mono right? But it should be even better in stereo. The widest things in the mx are the delayed chords in the middle breakdown. They play about 60% left and right in different takes. The shakers and tambourines are left and right I think about 60 odd % too. The organs travel L to R themselves really because they were done with a stereo panning thing. Most the licks and all that is not exactly centre but around it. So I guess the whole song isn't really hugely wide.
dobro
Well-known member
Yeah, that's right. Your mix sounds better in stereo than mono, slightly better, and I say good enough. I think what you said is a rule: "I mean it should still sound good in mono right? But it should be even better in stereo." And I will add this: 'But only just'. I think one reason I liked this mix so much through earbuds the first time is cuz it wasn't going crazy left/right. I don't like wide left/right separation through earbuds/headphones - it doesn't sound real, it's a distraction. The stereo dimension of the mix is for the audiophiles who toggle between mono and stereo to see if you know what you doing.
I've been A/B'ing your mix with Human's mix, and the comparison is interesting. I prefer yours, but he/she knows what they're doing because it's an interesting variation on the original. During the middle boogaloo section, Human's mix didn't sound wider through monitors, it sounded brighter. What HP's done doesn't sound better, it sounds different and good. Your take is still good.
It's like Human says: "I don't think there's a better. It's just different." I'd say 'not just different, but different and good'.
You'll probably go into mix variations after all this input, but make sure you keep records of your mixes as you go along. You might end up plumping for the first one.
HP - question: How much of your mix was accomplished with a plugin on the master bus?
I've been A/B'ing your mix with Human's mix, and the comparison is interesting. I prefer yours, but he/she knows what they're doing because it's an interesting variation on the original. During the middle boogaloo section, Human's mix didn't sound wider through monitors, it sounded brighter. What HP's done doesn't sound better, it sounds different and good. Your take is still good.
It's like Human says: "I don't think there's a better. It's just different." I'd say 'not just different, but different and good'.
You'll probably go into mix variations after all this input, but make sure you keep records of your mixes as you go along. You might end up plumping for the first one.
HP - question: How much of your mix was accomplished with a plugin on the master bus?
Monkey Allen
Fork and spoon operator
Yeah I wouldn't say stereo is better than mono or the other way round. I think in terms of mixing...they say it's a good idea to check in mono throughout mixing to make sure that things are holding together. So if I check in mono (which I do) and it sounds pretty ok then that's good coz I know that in stereo, which is what I'm mixing for, it should sound even better. For sure plenty of music has been and is in mono and its like, some of the most seminal music of all time, like the old 50's or 60's songs etc. So mono...stereo...either way. Just as long as if you're going for a stereo mix you check in mono. My phone is from 2016 and it's mono all the way, so I check!Yeah, that's right. Your mix sounds better in stereo than mono, slightly better, and I say good enough. I think what you said is a rule: "I mean it should still sound good in mono right? But it should be even better in stereo." And I will add this: 'But only just'. I think one reason I liked this mix so much through earbuds the first time is cuz it wasn't going crazy left/right. I don't like wide left/right separation through earbuds/headphones - it doesn't sound real, it's a distraction. The stereo dimension of the mix is for the audiophiles who toggle between mono and stereo to see if you know what you doing.
I've been A/B'ing your mix with Human's mix, and the comparison is interesting. I prefer yours, but he/she knows what they're doing because it's an interesting variation on the original. During the middle boogaloo section, Human's mix didn't sound wider through monitors, it sounded brighter. What HP's done doesn't sound better, it sounds different and good. Your take is still good.
It's like Human says: "I don't think there's a better. It's just different." I'd say 'not just different, but different and good'.
You'll probably go into mix variations after all this input, but make sure you keep records of your mixes as you go along. You might end up plumping for the first one.
HP - question: How much of your mix was accomplished with a plugin on the master bus?
I reckon the changes I made in the 2nd mix are pretty subtle. But I'm happier with the 2nd mix. Some of that low mid guitar is cleared up a bit so it sounds a little less amateur I guess. HumanPlanet only would have had the stereo mp3 to tweak so yeah, whatever plugs he used on the master would be what he did, I think. At first I didn't get it but then listening in my studio I could tell that he'd shot for making the song more energetic. My original mix lacked a bit of energy...was bogged down by the low mid in the guitars and lacked high end throughout...like in the drums especially and in the vocal.
Anyway, my changes were not drastic but it's better now. It's a good lesson in how far to go, because my original mix I was thinking man this is alright...don't mess with it! But there was more to do. So, kind of like a shooter calibrating his scope...I can get a feel for what to do next time. So yeah, good lesson here in the mixing clinic. I consider myself schooled!
Thanks for the comment on the guitars too!