Do 'Good' mic pre's make a difference, to you?

[witzendoz]

I honestly did not inyend to stir up a wasps nest here.. Lol. Look, I see all your points, they're all well made and educated, that's very cool. I believe a good pre is very important. It may not be your number 1, not even mine, but I'll be placing it in my top 3 quality things to have. The difference may not be night and day, but more like morning and evening! And they're very different to me Lol. Loving it. Cheers guys.

I should clarify, I was not saying it is not good to have good preamps, I was saying that the difference between having good pres and the ones you are using depends on how bad the ones you have are. As I said I like having different pres because they are different, which one is better? I don't know I just like using different ones and that changes from day to day. What a difference good pres make is shown in the film "Sound City" where the drum sound is defiantly great in no small part due to the Neve pres in use. I however can't justify the costs of buying a heap of them right now LOL.

I am always in the market to pick up something very good as my go to pre for single tracking in the near future.

Alan.

 

[Chili]

First, welcome back!!!

I think for clean mic pres, there might not be so much of an improvement for the listener, though the person recording and person being recorded might note a difference for the cleaner, quieter pre.

For mic pres with color, yeah, the listener is gonna hear differences. Good or bad. My only real experience is going from the mic pres on a Phonic mixer to a Focusrite Twintrack mic pre. The focusrite had an opto-compressor that you could definitely hear. It worked real nice on vocals and bass. To me, that was a huge improvement. I have since moved on to the UAD stuff and am kind of back to clean mic pres.

 

[superspit]

First, welcome back!!!

Thanks Chili.

 

[Tadpui]

I recently bought my first world-class truly great preamp. I think that it sounds amazing. But it doesn't write entertaining songs, perform flawless takes, or get my mic position just right. And nobody that ever listens to one of my mixes is ever going to think "damn, what preamp did he use on this?!?" I enjoy the sound it captures, but I fully understand that this enjoyment ends with me and my listening environment.

I think that the main benefit that you'll get out of good preamps (vs. bad ones) is a better noise floor. When I went from my first preamp (an ART Tube MP Studio) to a little Yamaha MG series mixer's preamps, there was an appreciable benefit mainly because that little Tube MP was not a good preamp. But the leap from the Yammie's preamps to an FMR RNP was pretty marginal, the main benefit was that the RNP had way better features like a ramp-up/ramp-down phantom power and inserts for each channel. From the RNP to the preamps on my RME interface was again a noticeable leap, those are much more true-to-life to my ears. And from the RME preamps to a BAE 1073 was another leap. But honestly the biggest difference was between the pretty awful ART to the not-so-bad Yamaha mixer. I'd say that was the most substantial upgrade that I made. Preamps are a subtle change, and your average earbud listener isn't going to notice much other than maybe less hiss or a little more high frequency detail. But it does stack up, track upon track, where the same preamp imposes its signature on every mix. Having more than one type of preamp at your disposal isn't a bad thing.

I've heard terrific recordings around here that were on very average preamps. Like Greg said above, the majority of home recording dudes aren't being held back by an average preamp, and there are much more important things to worry about.

 

[superspit]

I think that the difference good mic pres would make is dependent on how bad the mic pres you have now are.

For example the mic pres on my console sound pretty good, the main reason have external mic pres is that I can use different mic / pre combinations and have more recording inputs when I am tracking a band live (sometimes up to 20 inputs) and want the console channels freed up for monitoring.

Alan.

First, welcome back!!!

I think for clean mic pres, there might not be so much of an improvement for the listener, though the person recording and person being recorded might note a difference for the cleaner, quieter pre.

For mic pres with color, yeah, the listener is gonna hear differences. Good or bad. My only real experience is going from the mic pres on a Phonic mixer to a Focusrite Twintrack mic pre. The focusrite had an opto-compressor that you could definitely hear. It worked real nice on vocals and bass. To me, that was a huge improvement. I have since moved on to the UAD stuff and am kind of back to clean mic pres.

So, is it ultimately difficult to remove all the skill variables, along with mic placrment etc etc and just look at the pres, in their own right?

 

[ecc83]

So, is it ultimately difficult to remove all the skill variables, along with mic placrment etc etc and just look at the pres, in their own right?

It is virtually impossible to look at pre amps in their own right.

Consider comparing microphones? P o P, two channels, mic in each, record guitar, voice, whatever. Balance sensitivities, job's a good 'un.

How to compare two different mic pres? Mic splitter? Yes but the two pres will likely have different input Zs and that will subtly interact with the source impedance and throw things out of kilter.
Record one pre then another? Nobody can exactly duplicate a performance, at least not well enough to make THEIR contribution trivial compared to the subtle* effects you are investigating.

This is where the SoS test scored so highly. The sound source WAS purely acoustic, wideband and dynamic but, being MIDI controlled delivered exactly the same performance into pre after pre.

*Unless of course it is a rough arsed ART tooooob!

Dave.

 

[superspit]

My own AB consistently tells me, only with my eyes closed and ears open, that I have the potential to increase the audio quality, in my own terms, of my recording projects. Is that not a fair statement then?

 

[ecc83]

My own AB consistently tells me, only with my eyes closed and ears open, that I have the potential to increase the audio quality, in my own terms, of my recording projects. Is that not a fair statement then?

As applied to your situation, yes. As a general statement and guidance to others? No. The actual working electronics of a mic pre are pretty simple and it is hard for an engineer to see where the "magic smoke" is!

All I ask is that people make it plain that they are talking about THEIR subjective assessment of gear and that others, especially beginners, do not need to spend vast sums on boutique kit.

Dave.

 

[superspit]

Roger that.

 

[rob aylestone]

That's the engineer - as in the science - opinion and that's the one I subscribe to. If I cannot see and quantify something, I have trouble believing it. When CD and digital arrived, I remember all the discussions and endless quests for signal purity. Then we started along the lowering of purity and moved into selective distortion of it, if it sounds nice. This is taste, and fine, but it is not in any common sense use of the word, better. We advise on products that widen frequency response, increase dynamic range, reduce noise and distortion, and people hear the product get better and better. This I get. Totally! Exotic equipment that selectively then reduce the quality just confuse my brain. Many of the old equipment items that at the time were streets ahead are now treated with reverence but are flawed by today's standards of technical quality. However, they sound nice in some cases. Great. I'm a believer that once a certain standard is reached, it's good. Often very good. That's enough for me. Spending a lot on an exotic item is never going to convince the purchaser it was a waste. They then get used to that sound, and miss it when not there. That isn't physics, it's human.

 

[superspit]

Strooth... I spent under 300 buh on some old pres, that sound nice, oh soz, sound better than my previous unit's do. Sheet, did I use the apostrophe correctly? But seriously, thankyou for the excellent response.

 

[ecc83]

Yes Rob. There is a TV ad that infuriates me here! It is two dogs supposedly listening to a CD and an iPod. The implication being that MP3 is "better" than linear, 16bit CD!

For most of the time I was learning about audio the emphasis was on capturing and reproducing the actual sound. People like Quad, Radford and later speaker makers such as Spendor used actual live sounds (many non-musical such as jangling keys, breaking glass) Reviewers in the hallowed pages of Hi-Fi News used original master tapes of acoustic instruments to test a speakers fidelity. People here probably do not know that many recoding engineers of "classical" and jazz music elbowed tape just as soon as they could and went digital! (16bit, recorded on a bloody great Umatic VCR) . Very well done vinyl was always a dB or so better spec than the best tape could do but of course, vinyl is noisy, distorted crap compared to even 16bit digital, even with a playback system that would cost WAY more than most peoples PC, AI and the rest of their DAW. And THAT was just the turntable PU arm and cartridge!

LOT! Of bollocks talked about transformers as well!

Dave.

 

[Pinky]

That's the engineer - as in the science - opinion and that's the one I subscribe to. If I cannot see and quantify something, I have trouble believing it... Spending a lot on an exotic item is never going to convince the purchaser it was a waste. They then get used to that sound, and miss it when not there. That isn't physics, it's human.

 

[Pinky]

We are all very lucky and a bit spoiled that we can spend relatively small amounts of cash on equipment and still get such great recordings from it. Aint technology grand!?

But anyone is welcome to spend tons of money on their gear and still make great recordings from it. No one's stopping them.

 

[miroslav]

Strooth... I spent under 300 buh on some old pres, that sound nice, oh soz, sound better than my previous unit's do. Sheet, did I use the apostrophe correctly? But seriously, thankyou for the excellent response.

One thing to consider is that people only know what they know...and rarely do they know what they don't know.

I would never suggest to someone who just started recording to go buy a $3000 mic or preamp...but unless you at some point have access to many of the other available toys out there, and many of the other options...and you are able to make a lot of hands-on comparisons *over time*, not just a quick A/B of a couple of sound files that someone else posted on the internet or from something you read on a forum...
...you will not get a clear picture of what is what and why, or come to understand the differences between the low budget stuff and more high-end gear, or the reasons to use one or the other in a given situation.

You can do a lot with a basic home rec setup...WAY more than people could 20-30 years ago...but I see too many guys convincing themselves that they've reached the pinnacle of what they can do with what they have, and that there's no reason to consider anything beyond that. Much of that on home rec forums is driven purely by budget. I can't afford it...therefor I don't meed it, it's useless, it's hype, etc...etc.

Maybe not the best analogy...but it's like cars to some degree.
You can get from point A to B with a budget vehicle. Many even have a lot of creature features that use to only be found in very expensive cars. Heck, you can even do 80 mph and drive in all kinds of weather with that same budget vehicle. It does what it's supposed to do.
Yet...many people want the Audi or the BMW or what have you...and I'm certain most anyone that gets one, will know where the money went after they get behind the wheel of an expensive car....but, if they only ever have/drive that budget vehicle, they will not see beyond it. Also...there's differences in the build quality, the resale value, the maintenance needs and let's not forget, the driving experience, which goes a long way toward personal satisfaction.
Nothing wrong with budget vehicles...I've driven my share...just making the point that perspectives change when you really experience other/new things, rather than just talking about them.

Not sure where home recording was defined as only low budget recording.
Make the best with what you have, what you can afford...and don't ever think you've hit your highest mark.
Leave something to shoot for.

 

[Pinky]

You can do a lot with a basic home rec setup...WAY more than people could 20-30 years ago...but I see too many guys convincing themselves that they've reached the pinnacle of what they can do with what they have, and that there's no reason to consider anything beyond that. Much of that on home rec forums is driven purely by budget. I can't afford it...therefor I don't meed it, it's useless, it's hype, etc...etc.

Seems like deja vu, you post this a lot.

This IS a home recording forum, not a professional sound engineer forum. There are pro engineer forums, I've visited them briefly. It's a different crowd, different goals, different budgets, and completely different gear. Heck, they actually *make money* on their thousands investment in gear.

HR.com has always been, for me, a place where people new to mixing and mastering can come to learn. At some point, people graduate and decide to cross that gray area from home recording to studio. It sounds like you've crossed that threshold. Congrats!

For the remainder, budgets are a reality. Let me say that again, as it may be vaguely important. Home recording members have budgets. They are budget conscious. They won't spend $3,000 for X% improvement. They'll settle for "less" if it sounds okay to them, even if it might sound X% better if they invested money.

I think the argument that money and budget doesn't play a role in the advice given on this forum is a false narrative. I think budget is likely the BIGGEST single factor in every member's mind, with the exception of the few who have large sums of cash to throw at their hobby (the vastly smaller exception/minority of the whole). So when I provide advice I'm always leaning toward the budget friendly suggestions unless the OP indicates they have $XXXX to spend, and that's because I've always only purchased what I needed to achieve the goal/sound I wanted. Nothing less, and certainly nothing more. I think it's assumed members here are on a budget, and looking for the best cost/benefit options they can afford. To dismiss this is to dismiss the very foundations of why this forum exists.

Is a $3,000 mic preamp boutique? Maybe not on a professional engineering forum. On HR.com? You bet it is. Many members here may not even own that much in gear TOTAL.

 

[miroslav]

Yeah...but some home rec guys like you are always posting that expensive gear is more hype than anything, and/or that it makes no difference, or that you can do everything on low budget gear that the pros do with their million dollar setups.
Oh...and the other thing guys like you always post is the "dumbing down" perspective that this "only home recording"...implying that no one is trying to do pro stuff etc...and that you have to be on a different website when discussing anything buit low budget rigs.

Speak for yourself...but don't speak for everyone that is doing "home recording".

Home recording to me (and I know to a lot of other guys) is about *RECORDING AT HOME* ...instead of going to a commercial facility.
I don't recall where it was ever stated that "home recording" can only be some low budget affair...?
No one said budgets are not a reality.
I actually stated very clearly that they are...I only said that lots of home rec guys discuss gear entirely from that low budget perspective and THAT is the reason they dismiss higher-priced gear as "not needed" or "not making much of a difference".

That said, there are home studios that will make your head spin...stuff well beyond my budget, which by the way, is not anything extravagant, I've just been at this for a long time, so the equipment acquisition process has taken a long time....
...but, I've never once said, "this is it, I've got what I got, and there's no need to push the envelop further".
I also found that out through lots of gear I've bought and sold, that you get what you pay for...and that tends to be true at least 80% of the time.

I'm not really sure what it is you are complaining about here?
No one said anything about your budget or your home rec setup or what you are doing...but you seem to want to put down anyone that wants to talk about or look beyond whatever definition you have about what "home recording" means.

 

[Greg_L]

Yeah...but some home rec guys like you are always posting that expensive gear is more hype than anything, and/or that it makes no difference, or that you can do everything on low budget gear that the pros do with their million dollar setups.
Oh...and the other thing guys like you always post is the "dumbing down" perspective that this "only home recording"...implying that no one is trying to do pro stuff etc...and that you have to be on a different website when discussing anything buit low budget rigs.

Speak for yourself...but don't speak for everyone that is doing "home recording".

Home recording to me (and I know to a lot of other guys) is about *RECORDING AT HOME* ...instead of going to a commercial facility.
I don't recall where it was ever stated that "home recording" can only be some low budget affair...?
No one said budgets are not a reality.
I actually stated very clearly that they are...I only said that lots of home rec guys discuss gear entirely from that low budget perspective and THAT is the reason they dismiss higher-priced gear as "not needed" or "not making much of a difference".

That said, there are home studios that will make your head spin...stuff well beyond my budget, which by the way, is not anything extravagant, I've just been at this for a long time, so the equipment acquisition process has taken a long time....
...but, I've never once said, "this is it, I've got what I got, and there's no need to push the envelop further".
I also found that out through lots of gear I've bought and sold, that you get what you pay for...and that tends to be true at least 80% of the time.

I'm not really sure what it is you are complaining about here?
No one said anything about your budget or your home rec setup or what you are doing...but you seem to want to put down anyone that wants to talk about or look beyond whatever definition you have about what "home recording" means.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Pinky]

Once you build a studio "at home" is it not a studio, that just happens to be in your home?

I've never said good gear was crap/useless. I was pretty clear in my post(s). And I don't post that much, do it? Not sure I can/should be lumped in with "you guys".

 

[miroslav]

Don't you have a studio...and don't you try and run it as a business...so then why would you be here on "home recording"...?
See...it works both ways.

Not really sure what it is you're trying to say about home recording as being something different from actually having a studio in your home?
I would say that most here have something they call a "studio"...in their home...and many are also doing more than just their own recording projects, yet they hang here on a home recording site, and other people have no problem talking about gear...any gear.
Also...not everyone is just doing one kind of thing in their home recording studio environment.

You may not have said high-priced gear is crap...but you seem bothered by the discussion of anything other than low-budget gear?
You also tend to be dismissive about it's purpose and usefulness or necessity in some cases. The fact that you try to say that this being a "home recording" site, there shouldn't be discussions of anything but low budget gear, in some non-pro, "home recording" way...is kind of odd and makes it seem like want to dumb-down what home recording should be about, and/or only to what you think it is, and/or to what you are doing and/or to the type of studio you have set up at your place.

There's a lot of variety in home recording...likewise there's a lot of variety on the discussions, the gear, the techniques, the goals...etc..etc.