IR and convolution on cans - how far we are from this?

[Nola]

No, it can't. Mixing is wildly subjective. There is no way to determine ANY difference in the mixes is due to the monitoring chain.

i understand that, but if someone created a good mix using headphones, what would you conclude?
that they just got lucky?

 

[Greg_L]

i understand that, but if someone created a good mix using headphones, what would you conclude?
that they just got lucky?

Would that be any different from the ridiculous notion that a bad monitor mix must mean that headphones are somehow better?

 

[RFR]

i understand that, but if someone created a good mix using headphones, what would you conclude?
that they just got lucky?

By all means, do what works for you and makes you happy.

What I dont understand is the passionate defending of headphone mixing.

Why try to re-invent the wheel?

If HP mixing was superior, or even just as good, wouldnt the professionals in the industry all adopt this "radical new mix method"? Speaker companies could be obsolete.

The original topic of this thread was about the room simulation software. It was developed for one reason only. To make money. It's target market is home recordists with more money than sense.

 

[Greg_L]

It's target market is home recordists with more money than sense.

And headphone mixers that for some reason think they're a step ahead of old fashioned monitor users. They're beating the system! It's no different from sim companies touting all of the "advantages" of guitar sims over real amps. People always go for the easy way over the hard way.

 

[CMolena]

I guess a lesson we can all take from this thread is: It doesnt matter what the medium is...what matters is how a good the mix can be, no matter what tools used.

 

[Nola]

Would that be any different from the ridiculous notion that a bad monitor mix must mean that headphones are somehow better?

Kind of because monitors are considered the gold standard, and headphones are treated like the zinc standard. lol.
So if someone messes up on monitors, you can probably draw certain conclusions, likes it's probably an issue with room or the mixer or they were hung over.

I never said headphones are better and said early on that if i had a good room i'd use monitors and then a/b them in headphones. but in a bad room, i think headphones are better because i can take room out of the equation and only add it back in to a/b on my stereo. this works well. then i said a person can get ~90% where they need to be on good open back headphones and a/b on other systems for the rest. what is really annoying is the companies that make it seem like you can't mix unless you get foam and hundred/thousand dollar monitors, and then people buy into that, no pun meant, and perpetuate it.

then there is this issue: this is a home recording forum, but people act like we should all have setups like pro studios. i'm all for pushing the boundaries of what home recorders can do, but i don't think people should forget the roots of all this and frown upon people who don't have all that. i'm not saying you do that 'cause i'm not sure if you do or don't, but in general there seems to be a lot of people ripping apart walls in their homes and going over the top just to record a few of their tunes...
that's sort of another topic but kind of related to the headphone issue since many of us use the headphones because we can't do all that.

 

[CMolena]

And headphone mixers that for some reason think they're a step ahead of old fashioned monitor users. They're beating the system! It's no different from sim companies touting all of the "advantages" of guitar sims over real amps. People always go for the easy way over the hard way.

I dont say headphones are better to mix. It is just a way for those who cant afford monitors or prefer to use headphones.

Its different than amp sims...amp sims simulate what actually doesnt exists...

 

[Nola]

What I dont understand is the passionate defending of headphone mixing.

i'm really not defending it. i would use monitors if i had an ideal room.
i'm defending more the notion that you can't make a good mix in headphones. i think that is a dangerous idea since most people starting use them, and you guys might turn those beginners away or down the wrong path before they get started if you say a person can only mix with monitors (as the companies selling this gear like to make us think). they should learn those headphones and how to mix well on them. then if they get a good room one day they should buy some monitors.

 

[miroslav]

i agree, but the idea that there is a massive difference in mix quality between the two can be questioned and maybe narrowed.

You keep saying "massive difference"....who is saying that...?

 

[CMolena]

You keep saying "massive difference"....who is saying that...?

Well actually, Greg did mentioned that headphone mixers are the reason why homerecording is going down to shit. If that doesnt mean that he meant headphone mixes are enourmously inferior to monitor ones, then maybe I misunderstood him.

 

[miroslav]

Let's talk about physics for a moment.

With monitors, in a room...both of your ears actually hear both speakers and the interaction of the sounds coming from each.

With headphones, you right ear only hear what's in the right can, and your left ear only what's in the left can....
...not to mention, there is way more ear fatigue with headphones than monitors, which in itself will start to skew what/how you hear the sounds.

 

[miroslav]

Well actually, Greg did mentioned that headphone mixers are the reason why homerecording is going down to shit. If that doesnt mean that he meant headphone mixes are enourmously inferior to monitor ones, then maybe I misunderstood him.

Since you're now reading in-between the lines...then I think what he really meant was that home rec is more focused on shortcuts and the easy way out...and that's why so many home rec mixes are going down to shit.

Some of you want to reduce it to some contest...like if you can make a decent mix on headphones that sounds better than some shit mixes done on monitors, you've won...or something.

Read my post to ashcat above.
That's the reality that you can't overcome with headphones + plugin...because that's simply trying to simulate some virtual "room"...
...but without ever moving any air!
Sound is about moving air.

 

[Nola]

Its different than amp sims...amp sims simulate what actually doesnt exists...

I think people use amp sims b/c they can't mic up amps (neighbors, ordinances, etc). I don't think anyone thinks they sound better or do it because it's easy. For many people (like my best friend, for example) who are computer illiterate setting up the amp sim is harder than putting a mic in front of an amp.

Amps sound way better, in general, but a sim can be usable with a lot of hard work to tweak it.

 

[miroslav]

i'm really not defending it. i would use monitors if i had an ideal room.
i'm defending more the notion that you can't make a good mix in headphones. i think that is a dangerous idea since most people starting use them, and you guys might turn those beginners away or down the wrong path before they get started if you say a person can only mix with monitors (as the companies selling this gear like to make us think). they should learn those headphones and how to mix well on them. then if they get a good room one day they should buy some monitors.

Waaaaay back...in my 4-track tape days...there was no "home recording" as we now know it, and I had no fucking idea what I was doing. I just got some tape decks, some mics, and started recording...and headphones seemed like a normal thing for me to use.
I did everything with headphones and it all sounded great on the headphones, but I could never get a handle on why it didn't sound the same in the car or on my stereo system.
I mean...back then it didn't even have anything to do with having "ideal rooms" or the money...I simply didn't know what the best approach would be for mixing. I didn't even know shit about acoustic treatment..etc.

I dunno....maybe in your environment, in your situation you are not able to A/B things clearly...but I've get phones hanging around my studio and I use them all the time...for tracking and testing/checking... but it's now clear as night and day to me why I'm not mixing with them anymore.
I can sit there and put on the phones...then take them off and switch to the monitors...and there's not even a hint of any question about which to use. It's obvious just from doing that A/B at my mix position.
With phones, everything is boxed in and wrapped around my head...without them, things just open up and feel more natural...but I certainly understand how headphones can be addictive, because you have that total immersion and no air.

 

[RFR]

Wait till the virtual room goggles come out. You can now be in a "real" studio and be the master of your universe! All while in sitting in your bedroom in your underwear, surrounded by your dirty laundry and stinky socks.

Unfortunately your music still wont sell and you'll have 2 or 3 followers on your bandcamp.

 

[miroslav]

Wait till the virtual room goggles come out.

I'm sure there will be virtual sessions with The Who, Zep., FLoyd, etc. etc...and you can be the engineer, producer or one of the band members...


...and then you hear that faint voice yelling way in the background, "Will you please take that shit off your head and come to dinner already!"

 

[ashcat_lt]

Wait till the virtual room goggles come out. You can now be in a "real" studio and be the master of your universe! All while in sitting in your bedroom in your underwear, while surrounded by your dirty laundry and stinky socks.

I've been advocating for such things for over 20 years. I'm kind of happy with how close we've gotten, but real 3D VR studio would be great fun. I'd like also to be able to hire other musicians, engineers, producers, etc. Don't even care if they're real people or AI, as long as they don't suck. A big MMORSG (Recording Studio Game) that runs on Xbox Live and PS3. That would be frickin' cool! And I'm not even joking.

Anywho... miro is just all derp and didn't actually address my statements. Not a surprise. Have fun, dude.

 

[Nola]

I've been advocating for such things for over 20 years. I'm kind of happy with how close we've gotten, but real 3D VR studio would be great fun. I'd like also to be able to hire other musicians, engineers, producers, etc. Don't even care if they're real people or AI, as long as they don't suck. A big MMORSG (Recording Studio Game) that runs on Xbox Live and PS3. That would be frickin' cool! And I'm not even joking.

Anywho... miro is just all derp and didn't actually address my statements. Not a surprise. Have fun, dude.

Agree Ashcat, no time to fear or hate things.

 

[miroslav]

Anywho... miro is just all derp and didn't actually address my statements. Not a surprise. Have fun, dude.

Since you sidestep the fundamental difference in the physics/acoustics of monitors in a room VS headphones on your ears, why bring up other shit and expect it addressed?

I would think you of all people would comprehend the "sound in air" thing.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Since you sidestep the fundamental difference in the physics/acoustics of monitors in a room VS headphones on your ears, why bring up other shit and expect it addressed?

I would think you of all people would comprehend the "sound in air" thing.

My point directly addresses this thing about physics and acoustics. You can't possibly have a more consistent and reliable stereo image with speakers than you can with headphones. You can "fake" the crosstalk in headphones. You can't "fake" the perfect separation of headphones on speakers. More importantly, you can't practically get as consistent and repeatable a stereo image with speakers in a room as you can with headphones. There is no doubt and no argument there. If the point is that you want to "know for sure" about your relationship to the speakers and be sure that you're always comparing apples to apples, then headphones win every goddamn time.

And headphones move air, too.