IR and convolution on cans - how far we are from this?

[ashcat_lt]

But there are no rules. There are only people who heard and misinterpreted some information, taken it way too far and out if context until they're absolutely sure that there is only one right way to do a thing. The rest of us do what we can with what we have, find what works for us, and keep our eyes out for ways to improve when budget and circumstance and much more importantly experience and knowledge allow.

Frankly, if the material deserves to be recorded, I'd rather hear the mix you made on headphones than not hear it at all.

Low is supposed to be slow and repetitive. They started out with the goal of being the slowest, quietest band in town as a reaction to the preponderance of loud fast grunge, skate punk, and metal that dominated our scene at the time. They thought it was the most brutally "punk rock" thing they could do at the time, and they were kinda right.

 

[Greg_L]

But there are no rules. There are only people who heard and misinterpreted some information, taken it way too far and out if context until they're absolutely sure that there is only one right way to do a thing. The rest of us do what we can with what we have, find what works for us, and keep our eyes out for ways to improve when budget and circumstance and much more importantly experience and knowledge allow..

No one said there's only one "right" way to do anything. I only question the experience, or glaring lack of, that the pro-headphone people actually have with monitors and/or good rooms. It's one thing to like your headphones, fine, no problem, but to speak as if they're better when you've never used monitors or a good room is asinine. Again, ignorance is bliss, and these guys are happy.

Too many inexperienced n00bs have way too much to say in here about things they know nothing about.

 

[miroslav]

But there are no rules.

Actually when it comes to physics and acoustics...there ARE rules.
This whole headphone + plugin thing is attempting to work around them.

Also...why is it every time there's a general/broad discussion about something...someone always has to pull one excpetion out of millions, and then use that as some proof that the millions aren't always right.

And yes...I agree with Greg 100% that on these home rec forums someone is always trying to lower the bar for everyone else to feel better about their shortcomings.


"I can only afford the $59 microphone...so please explain to me how I can get a pro result with it, and I saw engineer XYZ on You Tube, and he was using that same mic in his studio, so that means I too can get the same pro results as he did, and I don't need to buy anything better....yada, yada, yada....."

It seems like 4 out of 5 newcomers go through this process of denial for a period of time, looking for ways to cut corners and fit round pegs into square holes, and spending way too much time arguing against tried and true techniques.

 

[Nola]

Lol for real. Just stop dude.

No, let's do it, to see the massive difference between someone experienced on monitors and someone inexperienced on headphones. It would be a cool experiment.

 

[Greg_L]

No, let's do it, to see the massive difference between someone experienced on monitors and someone inexperienced on headphones. It would be a cool experiment.

I don't need to do an experiment like this, so what do I get out of it?

And who would "judge" it anyway? MP3Clinic posters? Haha. Uh, fuck no.

 

[Greg_L]

It seems like 4 out of 5 newcomers go through this process of denial for a period of time, looking for ways to cut corners and fit round pegs into square holes, and spending way too much time arguing against tried and true techniques.

Yup.

 

[RFR]

Lowering the bar...hmm. lots of truth there.

Anyone who has had the good fortune to work in a real pro studio, and has heard something in that environment, knows that "it dont get any better than that" ( well, except maybe in a mastering room)

That's the source point. Then it trickles down. Finally to the point of degradation of where someone is listening to the song on ITunes, Spotify, Pandora, etc.
On a phone! At best with earbuds, at worst with the shitty IPhone speaker.

Ovetall, just the listening of music itself has become downgraded.
In a world where so many have grown up with shitty music delivery systems, this has become the new "normal".

A lowering of the bar for sure. Why lower the bar at the source point??

Just because people listen on shit, why should someone monitor and mix on shit?

 

[Nola]

I don't need to do an experiment like this, so what do I get out of it?

I dunno, but if you change your mind just post a song in the "mix this" subforum.
I'll extend the offer to anyone mixing on monitors. It would be an interesting experiment to me at least, and maybe some others.

 

[Greg_L]

I dunno, but if you change your mind just post a song in the "mix this" subforum.
I'll extend the offer to anyone mixing on monitors. It would be an interesting experiment to me at least, and maybe some others.

Good luck with that.

 

[miroslav]

No, let's do it, to see the massive difference between someone experienced on monitors and someone inexperienced on headphones. It would be a cool experiment.

The only way you could do that and get any valid info from it would be mixing the exact same material...anything else becomes a subjective love/hate fest....but even with the same material, person A likes the vocals up a couple of dB, and maybe the guitars panned at 80% L/R...while person B likes the vocals down a couple of dB with the guitars panned at 90% L/R...
...and right way, you've injected a whole lot of subjective "taste" variables, so no way to really do any kind of objective comparison.

So the simple thing to do is trust physics and acoustics for the objective stuff...and then you can be as subjective as you like in all your other decisions.

 

[Greg_L]

anything else becomes a subjective love/hate fest.

That would be the case no matter what.

 

[Nola]

The only way you could do that and get any valid info from it would be mixing the exact same material...anything else becomes a subjective love/hate fest....but even with the same material, person A likes the vocals up a couple of dB, and maybe the guitars panned at 80% L/R...while person B likes the vocals down a couple of dB with the guitars panned at 90% L/R...
...and right way, you've injected a whole lot of subjective "taste" variables, so no way to really do any kind of objective comparison.

So the simple thing to do is trust physics and acoustics for the objective stuff...and then you can be as subjective as you like in all your other decisions.

I agree it would be subjective like everything, but it would be interesting to see if there's a massive difference like is being implied.
We could post the song on soundcloud in an objective group for that genre and let them decide, too. My guess is the mix differences would be pretty minor.

 

[Farview]

The only real test would be to have the same person mix two similar songs by the same band with the same instrumentation, etc... one song with headphones, the other with monitors in a good room.

Having two different people mix the same song under the same conditions will lead to different results, so you can't draw any conclusions about the difference between cans and speakers.

Then comes the issue of defining "better"...

 

[RFR]

In the end it don't really matter, no one is gonna buy, or possibly even listen to your music anyway. LOL

 

[Nola]

The only real test would be to have the same person mix two similar songs by the same band with the same instrumentation, etc... one song with headphones, the other with monitors in a good room.

Having two different people mix the same song under the same conditions will lead to different results, so you can't draw any conclusions about the difference between cans and speakers.

Then comes the issue of defining "better"...

i agree, but the idea that there is a massive difference in mix quality between the two can be questioned and maybe narrowed.

 

[Greg_L]

The only real test would be to have the same person mix two similar songs by the same band with the same instrumentation, etc... one song with headphones, the other with monitors in a good room.

Having two different people mix the same song under the same conditions will lead to different results, so you can't draw any conclusions about the difference between cans and speakers.

Then comes the issue of defining "better"...

Yup, this ^^^^^^^

So many holes in this idea.

 

[ashcat_lt]

Let's talk about physics for a moment. How exactly are keeping your head exactly right in the ideal listening position ever, let alone for long enough to mix an entire album? Wanna talk about "reliable stereo image"? I don't care how wonky you put on your headphones, it won't be as different from "optimal" as if you lean back or slouch down in your chair in front of a pair of speakers.

In fact, this is one of the big reasons I personally have always preferred speakers! I can get different perspectives on the mix by just moving around a little bit. Lean forward a bit, and I get a better idea of just how wide it really is and how it might work on headphones. Lean back a bit, or go stand further back, and I can see how it collapses to mono, and might sound at more realistic listening distances.

Theoretically, a good room simulation in headphones could do all of that, but also could let you completely change the playback system and even the room itself! Ideally it would correct for the actual headphones being used. It still doesn't help with that physical sensation of bass, though.

 

[leddy]

Having two different people mix the same song under the same conditions will lead to different results

I'll lay money down that the same person mixing the same song twice under the same conditions will lead to (at least somewhat) different results.

 

[Farview]

i agree, but the idea that there is a massive difference in mix quality between the two can be questioned and maybe narrowed.

No, it can't. There can be a massive difference with two people mixing the same song under the same conditions. Way too many variables to draw any conclusions from at all. Hell, there were some albums that I got one song at a time over the course of a year. Once I was done with the last one, I realized that I needed to remix the first half of the album because I approached the last batch of songs differently than the first. They were all good mixes, done under the same circumstances, the only difference was my 'mood' or the way I decided to attack them. A year later, I was in a different head space and came up with wildly different results. (Since I've been doing this professionally since the 80's, it isn't like I learned much new that would lead to different results)

Mixing is wildly subjective. There is no way to determine ANY difference in the mixes is due to the monitoring chain.

 

[RFR]

Many variables indeed. You can do a mix leave it up, and in the morning hear something completely different than the night before.