Speaker sound quality

[abdullahseba]

Hi
Is there any difference in sound quality between buying a proper shelf speaker such as this one: Q Acoustics 3020 review | What Hi-Fi?
and using a speaker driver like this: FR 108 OHM | Visaton Round Speaker Driver, 30W nom, 50W max, 8? | Visaton
The frequency response is about the same on both.
I've never bought a proper pair of speakers before but I have got the Visaton Speaker Driver for a museum installation and to me the sound on a cheap Chinese 50W amp was superb to anything I have heard before (German quality )
And now I want a good speaker for the AV receiver so I thought if the quality really is good, I will make my own speaker boxes and save about a £100.
Any thoughts or experience?

Thanks in advance.

 

[gecko zzed]

The Q Acoustics will go a bit lower than the Visatron.

To get the best out of the visatron you would need to pay close attention to the design of the speaker box.

 

[abdullahseba]

The Q Acoustics will go a bit lower than the Visatron.

To get the best out of the visatron you would need to pay close attention to the design of the speaker box.

Sorry didn't quite understand. So if I make the speaker box correctly the quality would be better?

 

[Farview]

No, the vistatron, in a perfect box, will not reproduce as low of a frequency as the Q Acoustics. The Q Acoustics will also go a little higher, but only children have a chance of noticing.

I'm not sure I understand trying to compare a speaker cabinet and a raw speaker. It's apples and oranges.

 

[abdullahseba]

No, the vistatron, in a perfect box, will not reproduce as low of a frequency as the Q Acoustics. The Q Acoustics will also go a little higher, but only children have a chance of noticing.

I'm not sure I understand trying to compare a speaker cabinet and a raw speaker. It's apples and oranges.

I did mention making speaker boxes and the main bit of a speaker is the driver or woofer.

Speaker: £13
Tweeter: £10
Crossover: £20
Terminals: £5
Screws: £0 plenty about the bedroom floor .
Wires: £0 I've got about a mile I should think.
Sealed Box: £0 I've got plenty of free wood
Looks(if your bothered): £0 My mum can supply me with a whole selection of cloth or paint.
Times that by two and you come to just under a hundred.

 

[ecc83]

You cannot take an ad hoc collection of woofers, tweeters and crossovers and make a high quality speaker UNLESS all those parts come from the same source as a kit.

That Visation driver is a cheap ass unit intended for low end consumer audio and "blasters" . The parasitic centre cone will not come close to the fidelity and dispersion of a decent tweeter and if you try to use both the results will be worse than either alone.

If you want "quality" buy a decent complete kit or proper hi fi speakers.

What is the power output rating of the receiver?

Dave.

 

[abdullahseba]

You cannot take an ad hoc collection of woofers, tweeters and crossovers and make a high quality speaker UNLESS all those parts come from the same source as a kit.

That Visation driver is a cheap ass unit intended for low end consumer audio and "blasters" . The parasitic centre cone will not come close to the fidelity and dispersion of a decent tweeter and if you try to use both the results will be worse than either alone.

If you want "quality" buy a decent complete kit or proper hi fi speakers.

What is the power output rating of the receiver?

Dave.

I haven't got the AV receiver yet, but probably 100-200W.
And why does it have to come as a kit?

 

[ecc83]

I haven't got the AV receiver yet, but probably 100-200W.
And why does it have to come as a kit?

Even 100W per ch with a cheap* 50/60W drive unit is asking for trouble, modern digital sources can supply large energies at LF and HF extremes.

Kit because the upper response of the woofer has to complement to some extent the allowable lower frequency response of the tweeter and the whole is "knitted" together by a carefully designed crossover network calculated for THOSE drive units. But if you just want a bit of "boom and tish"yes, you can hook up any old drivers and X overs!

*High quality speakers CAN be used, with care, on amplifiers up to twice their power rating but note the word "care" and this certainly does not apply to RadShack tat!

Personally I have never been a supporter of the "Bigger amp than speaker" theory and it CERTAINLY does not apply to guitar amps where speakers should be AT LEAST 50% above amp rating and preff' 100%.

Dave.

 

[gecko zzed]

In contrast to Dave, I have always been a supporter of the bigger amp than speaker theory.

Here's the thing. You can get a pair of those visaton speaker, make up boxes for them, and get something that you can hook up to your amp.

What you should not expect is hi-fi quality, because hi-fi is a result of well engineered and match speakers coupled to precise and scientifically designed enclosures.

But what you are thinking of building will work, and may even sound reasonable. What's more, you will have the satisfaction of having done it yourself, and done it cheaper than something you can buy.

So long as you can hear when your speakers are not coping with the power your feeding to them, they should last a while.

Note the following which comes from:How Much Amplifier Power Do I Need? | Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers

"If you can prevent the power amp from clipping (by using a limiter), use a power amp that supplies 2 to 4 times the speakers continuous power rating per channel. This allows 3 to 6 dB of headroom for peaks in the audio signal. Speakers are built to handle those short-term peaks. If you cant keep the power amp from clipping (say, you have no limiter and the system is overdriven or goes into feedback) the amplifier power should equal the speakers continuous power rating. That way the speaker wont be damaged if the amp clips by overdriving its input. In this case there is no headroom for peaks, so youll have to drive the speaker at less than its full rated power if you want to avoid distortion."

 

[ecc83]

Do not want to start a cow Mr G and Crown are very respected people in the audio world but they DO inhabit the high, "industrial" end! The theory* does not apply so well I would aver for crap G Blaster speakers!

I do agree that the OP can throw together some components and build something that will sound quite pleasant, Done it dozens of times in me yoof! Quality however costs in time and materials.

*And it IS a theory! I subscribe to the view that repro "systems" should be designed from the venue back.
Decide/calculate the SPLs you want and where and then build/buy speakers that can deliver them..THEN buy amplifiers that can deliver the power based on the speaker's sensitivity, with maybe a 3dB headroom. I would also suggests that a big amp, amping a hard limited signal is going to be pretty destructive to a speaker rated 1/4 the power of the amplifier?

But much depends, as you say, on whether you can hear when the speaker is in trouble. In many commercial situations you can't. Put that another way? Don't leave the pub music system in the hands of the barman!

Dave.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

The only time amp:speaker power ratios matter is when you're pushing one or the other to the limit. If your speakers can get loud enough for your purpose and you have enough amp watts to push them to that level you're good to go.

When you're transporting and setting up PA systems the weight and volume of equipment becomes a major consideration. So in live sound you want to know how to get the absolute maximum output from a given weight and volume of gear. That is when 1.5x or 2x power can help. Also, most pro live sound systems are carefully limited in each pass band to protect the drivers from mechanical damage, something not really possible with a full range amp into a full range box.

 

[rob aylestone]

I have made speaker cabinets over the years for hi-fi and PA use, and the only hi-fi ones that sounded nice were built from a kit. If you loom on the net, you will find all sorts of cabinet designs - and they are all matched to a particular driver set. Swapping an 8" speaker to a different brand, or even model is a foolish thing to do, unless you believe in luck. The kits are designed to produce a consistent and predictable end result. Swapping a horn driver in my PA monitors caused endless grief - the Turbosound replacement was hugely expensive, so an identical spec Celestial was fitted. It was brighter and needed different EQ - which of course meant it didn't match the others and could not be swapped. Home built cabinets can resonate and rattle - especially with higher power levels. Even with decent woodworking skills, making speakers is heavy on time for one-off projects. A two hundred quid speaker vs a 12 quid speaker? What does it sound like? No idea. Go to Richer Sounds or similar, take your favourite music, and try some different speakers. You'll be amazed how different they all sound.

 

[Farview]

I did mention making speaker boxes and the main bit of a speaker is the driver or woofer.

Speaker: £13
Tweeter: £10
Crossover: £20
Terminals: £5
Screws: £0 plenty about the bedroom floor .
Wires: £0 I've got about a mile I should think.
Sealed Box: £0 I've got plenty of free wood
Looks(if your bothered): £0 My mum can supply me with a whole selection of cloth or paint.
Times that by two and you come to just under a hundred.

The vistatron is a full range speaker with a wizzer cone for the high end. This is not the sort of speaker that you would pair up with a tweeter and a crossover. Add that to the fact that you really can't just pick random drivers, pair them with any old crossover and put them in any box and expect to get a decent result.

There is so much more to it than that. You will not be able to find a decent combination, especially when buying the cheapest stuff you can find.

 

[Pinky]

If you want "quality" buy a decent complete kit or proper hi fi speakers.

This. And for the low price for decent speakers nowadays, it's likely more costly to make them yourself and you're only increasing your odds of issues (if, as suggested, it's not a kit). There's just so many good makes and models of speakers out there in every price range. Until you go real high end most retail stuff will do just fine.

 

[ecc83]

The only time amp:speaker power ratios matter is when you're pushing one or the other to the limit. If your speakers can get loud enough for your purpose and you have enough amp watts to push them to that level you're good to go.

When you're transporting and setting up PA systems the weight and volume of equipment becomes a major consideration. So in live sound you want to know how to get the absolute maximum output from a given weight and volume of gear. That is when 1.5x or 2x power can help. Also, most pro live sound systems are carefully limited in each pass band to protect the drivers from mechanical damage, something not really possible with a full range amp into a full range box.

Err? Going to put you in my camp BSG! The "pushed to the limit" is exactly the case I cited with guitar amps, they will regularly be overdriven (even pre amp distortion can be damaging, we don't hear the destructive harmonics because the speaker starts to filter at 8kHz. Who here has blown up Dad's tweeters with an AC15?!) .

The 1.5-2 x headroom equates nicely to my "up to 3dB". Sure, you CAN put a 400BHP V8 with a Cortina gearbox and clutch and drive it carefully but give it the beans and SOMETHING will start to smell! (don't know the USA equivalent for a small family car. )

Dave.

 

[abdullahseba]

Even 100W per ch with a cheap* 50/60W drive unit is asking for trouble, modern digital sources can supply large energies at LF and HF extremes.

Kit because the upper response of the woofer has to complement to some extent the allowable lower frequency response of the tweeter and the whole is "knitted" together by a carefully designed crossover network calculated for THOSE drive units. But if you just want a bit of "boom and tish"yes, you can hook up any old drivers and X overs!

*High quality speakers CAN be used, with care, on amplifiers up to twice their power rating but note the word "care" and this certainly does not apply to RadShack tat!

Personally I have never been a supporter of the "Bigger amp than speaker" theory and it CERTAINLY does not apply to guitar amps where speakers should be AT LEAST 50% above amp rating and preff' 100%.

Dave.

So does that mean what the woofer doesn't produce the tweeter produces and vice versa?

 

[abdullahseba]

In contrast to Dave, I have always been a supporter of the bigger amp than speaker theory.

Here's the thing. You can get a pair of those visaton speaker, make up boxes for them, and get something that you can hook up to your amp.

What you should not expect is hi-fi quality, because hi-fi is a result of well engineered and match speakers coupled to precise and scientifically designed enclosures.

But what you are thinking of building will work, and may even sound reasonable. What's more, you will have the satisfaction of having done it yourself, and done it cheaper than something you can buy.

So long as you can hear when your speakers are not coping with the power your feeding to them, they should last a while.

Note the following which comes from:How Much Amplifier Power Do I Need? | Crown Audio - Professional Power Amplifiers

"If you can prevent the power amp from clipping (by using a limiter), use a power amp that supplies 2 to 4 times the speakers continuous power rating per channel. This allows 3 to 6 dB of headroom for peaks in the audio signal. Speakers are built to handle those short-term peaks. If you cant keep the power amp from clipping (say, you have no limiter and the system is overdriven or goes into feedback) the amplifier power should equal the speakers continuous power rating. That way the speaker wont be damaged if the amp clips by overdriving its input. In this case there is no headroom for peaks, so youll have to drive the speaker at less than its full rated power if you want to avoid distortion."

I think I will just try it, as long as I'm pleased with the quality and its better than my 2.1 PC speakers that good enough for me.
I don't go at crazy volumes or use musical instruments so it should me fine.

 

[gecko zzed]

So does that mean what the woofer doesn't produce the tweeter produces and vice versa?

The audible frequency range is within 20hz to 20,000hz. That is the frequency range that a speaker would need to reproduce. However, designing a speaker that can handle such a wide range is problematic, and it is usually easier to design speakers to cover various parts of the audio spectrum, then couple them together. The simplest is a two-way system, i.e. a woofer to reproduce the lower frequencies, and a tweeter to reproduce the higher frequencies. A cross-over circuit between the two components makes sure each speaker gets only the frequencies it can effectively reproduce.

 

[gecko zzed]

Err? Going to put you in my camp BSG! The "pushed to the limit" is exactly the case I cited with guitar amps, they will regularly be overdriven (even pre amp distortion can be damaging, we don't hear the destructive harmonics because the speaker starts to filter at 8kHz. Who here has blown up Dad's tweeters with an AC15?!) .

The 1.5-2 x headroom equates nicely to my "up to 3dB". Sure, you CAN put a 400BHP V8 with a Cortina gearbox and clutch and drive it carefully but give it the beans and SOMETHING will start to smell! (don't know the USA equivalent for a small family car. )

Dave.

I don't disagree in the case of guitar amps.

But in fairness, OP is not involved in building a speaker for a guitar amp, nor in running a PA in a pub. The application is low-power and non-critical. For that reason, I encourage the OP's building of his own.

I did the same in my younger years. I only vaguely knew what I was doing, but it was fun, I learnt a lot, and I had the satisfaction of creating something. In time, my listening skills became more refined, and I increased my technical knowledge, and I was happy to forgo my DIY efforts and get stuff that was designed and built by experts.

 

[ecc83]

I don't disagree in the case of guitar amps.

But in fairness, OP is not involved in building a speaker for a guitar amp, nor in running a PA in a pub. The application is low-power and non-critical. For that reason, I encourage the OP's building of his own.

I did the same in my younger years. I only vaguely knew what I was doing, but it was fun, I learnt a lot, and I had the satisfaction of creating something. In time, my listening skills became more refined, and I increased my technical knowledge, and I was happy to forgo my DIY efforts and get stuff that was designed and built by experts.

I quite agree Geks' and I usually applaud DIY efforts but the OP has used the word "quality" and is looking to get speakers on a very low budget, can't be done.

As I said, I have built shedloads of speakers of all kinds. Several bass cabs and "line source" PA speakers as well as numerous "hi fi" types. All good fun and I fooled myself that they sounded brilliant!

So yes, by all means grab some cheap components and have a go but do not think for one moment that they will be close to a well designed commercial speaker.

My diatribe about guitar speakers and power handling was perhaps a diversion but was intended as General Information in a thread about speakers!

And lastly, yes, crossovers are SUPPOSED to keep out of band signals out of drivers but simple (cheap!) 12dB/octave jobbies don't do it very well!

Dave.