fat_fleet
Swollen Member
Lol, I'd like to hear more about how Greg is "not letting you" use your drum programs. Is he seriously capable of this??
Lol, I'd like to hear more about how Greg is "not letting you" use your drum programs. Is he seriously capable of this??
Chili
Site Moderator
I just want to jump in and say, I know Greg isn't saying that. He, and most everyone else, understands fake drums are a necessity for those of us who can't use real drums.
He's going to extra distance and saying that because it's easy to pull the fake drums off the shelf, that recording real drums is becoming a dying art. I don't agree with that sentiment. I bet there are still the same number of drummers in studios as there were 7 years ago. But now there are more people recording in general because it's easier to accomplish than it used to be. More people dilute the statistics, but still a lot of drummers in studios.
Bubba po
Tiny Stonehenge Moment
One of my primary goals when I returned to home recording after a hiatus of about twenty-five years was to learn how to record and mix real drums to sound powerful and rich and convincing. With a few people's help, I'm getting there, but the feeling of satisfaction and achievement has been enormous. I'm lucky to have an excellent and willing drummer on tap and forgiving neighbours. On the other hand, my recording room is shit and recording real drums has been a real trial. Everybody ought to have a go at it, though. It's a proper education in recording techniques.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Yes, you did indeed get it wrong.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Yes exactly. There are still a lot of drummers. But the homebodies that have no desire to have anything to do with real drums because they don't have to are exploding in numbers. The ease of home recording and the sims an softwares that go along with it make it possible for anybody to record an entire album without so much as making a *gasp* loud noise. I personally don't find that comforting or exciting. People don't have to mic an amp, bass cabs, drums, a piano, or anything. The skill and art of capturing actual sound is suffering. I don't think that's a good thing.
I do accept that not everyone has the ability to bang on loud ass drums, or find a human drummer willing to play their music. I get that. I get that drum software is the only option for some people. I have no problem with that. I'm not dogging on those people. It doesn't change the fact that tons of people are doing this stuff without a thought to the fundamentals of recording, and I don't like that. I do believe that a very large number of home recorders are perfectly happy to just get their shit "recorded" regardless of method, and I have trouble finding anything respectable about that.
Chili
Site Moderator
Dude. I'd be terrified!!! lol
Chili
Site Moderator
So true. Yet, most of us who use all the fake crap don't want to be audio engineers in the first place; they want to write their songs and hear them played out. They want to do it at home so they don't have to spend a ton of money at a studio. That's the whole reason I got started with recording, not for recording's sake, but for songwriting's sake. I just want to hear my songs.
Then I found this place and it's all been downhill ever since.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Getting good real drum tracks is the most rewarding part of recording that I've ever done. And by good, I mean drums coming out exactly the way I want them to. That's what defines good to me. The results match or exceed your expectations. From head selection, to tuning, to mic placement, and of course the performance, it all has to be on point and it's hard to do. But the reward, it's awesome. Lining up dots and dashes in a MIDI editor doesn't have the same effect.
G
Greg_L
Banned
So true. Yet, most of us who use all the fake crap don't want to be audio engineers in the first place; they want to write their songs and hear them played out. They want to do it at home so they don't have to spend a ton of money at a studio. That's the whole reason I got started with recording, not for recording's sake, but for songwriting's sake. I just want to hear my songs.
Then I found this place and it's all been downhill ever since.
And that's all valid to me. I'm not saying you can't or shouldn't do it that way. But I also notice you're not trying to downplay real drums, so it's all good. I don't have a problem with drum programmers. I help people all the time with getting their drum programming to sound more human, more real. I do have a problem with drum programmer idiots that try to rationalize and justify their own inadequacies by disregarding real drums.
Bubba po
Tiny Stonehenge Moment
You can do a lot with perseverance and the will to win, ha ha!. One thing I can tell you, though, is that the problems aren't solved by posh microphones or interfaces. I have budget mic gear - a generic drum mic set, an SM57 and a pair of Rode NT-1As. The biggest gains are through mic placement, careful drum tuning and heads, and room treatment.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Tuning alone is a lost art for even skilled drummers sometimes. I can't even tell you how many good drummers I see and hear playing shitty sounding kits.
R
RFR
Well-known member
I did midi drums (remember sequencing?) for a couple of years as a songwriter.
It got real unsatisfying after a while and i went the extreme to actually take over a 6 room rehearsal studio that went under. It came with a control room and a live room.
It did well for some years and renting the rehearsal rooms out paid the rent.
But make no mistake, there was never a desire to be a rehearsal studio owner.
It was all for the purpose if being able to record real drums.
It became very satisfying after that.
In my case I realize I went to an extreme, and don't expect everyone to buy or take over a rehearsal facility. Or to even have the means or opportunity to do so. I got lucky. Right place, right time and the willingness to take a chance.
My point is this;
If you want to record real drums you CAN. With the modern computer recording equipment, you can set it on the passenger seat of a compact car. I mean, really. What do you need? A laptop, an interface, some cords and mics.
Its not like the old days where high level recording equipment wasn't exactly portable.
Rent out a rehearsal space for a day, get a drummer, have him tune them well, and go to work. Any extra mics and cables the studio will gladly rent you, maybe even throw them in for free.
If you want real drums (your choice) it can be done.
It got real unsatisfying after a while and i went the extreme to actually take over a 6 room rehearsal studio that went under. It came with a control room and a live room.
It did well for some years and renting the rehearsal rooms out paid the rent.
But make no mistake, there was never a desire to be a rehearsal studio owner.
It was all for the purpose if being able to record real drums.
It became very satisfying after that.
In my case I realize I went to an extreme, and don't expect everyone to buy or take over a rehearsal facility. Or to even have the means or opportunity to do so. I got lucky. Right place, right time and the willingness to take a chance.
My point is this;
If you want to record real drums you CAN. With the modern computer recording equipment, you can set it on the passenger seat of a compact car. I mean, really. What do you need? A laptop, an interface, some cords and mics.
Its not like the old days where high level recording equipment wasn't exactly portable.
Rent out a rehearsal space for a day, get a drummer, have him tune them well, and go to work. Any extra mics and cables the studio will gladly rent you, maybe even throw them in for free.
If you want real drums (your choice) it can be done.
G
Greg_L
Banned
I did midi drums (remember sequencing?) for a couple of years as a songwriter.
It got real unsatisfying after a while and i went the extreme to actually take over a 6 room rehearsal studio that went under. It came with a control room and a live room.
It did well for some years and renting the rehearsal rooms out paid the rent.
But make no mistake, there was never a desire to be a rehearsal studio owner.
It was all for the purpose if being able to record real drums.
It became very satisfying after that.
In my case I realize I went to an extreme, and don't expect everyone to buy or take over a rehearsal facility. Or to even have the means or opportunity to do so. I got lucky. Right place, right time and the willingness to take a chance.
My point is this;
If you want to record real drums you CAN. With the modern computer recording equipment, you can set it on the passenger seat of a compact car. I mean, really. What do you need? A laptop, an interface, some cords and mics.
Its not like the old days where high level recording equipment wasn't exactly portable.
Rent out a rehearsal space for a day, get a drummer, have him tune them well, and go to work. Any extra mics and cables the studio will gladly rent you, maybe even throw them in for free.
If you want real drums (your choice) it can be done.
You aint wrong, but man, that takes time and effort! And getting dressed! Aint nobody got time for that. They need the instant pants-free no-effort satisfaction of drum software.
Bubba po
Tiny Stonehenge Moment
If you're trying to fake a real drum performance, that kind of faux pas is unforgivable. On the other hand, percussion parts should be able to transcend what a real drummer can do in a single performance, providing it serves the song. On my last recording, the drums had a straight 2/4 rhythm on the intro with 1/16 triplets on the hi-hat. It also had floor tom accents on every second bar - 14" floor tom in the right ear, 16" floor tom in the left. One drummer couldn't replicate that performance live, but if your plan for a recording production requires it, then go ahead! There are no rules except "don't suck".
Mr Clean
AKA Teddy Wong
In this "one click" society we all live in nowadays, it's hardly surprising fake drums are becoming more prevalent. People want shit yesterday and as cheap and easy as possible. From the big time Record Producers down to the Home Recordists. (Is that a word?)
I don't think Greg is as anti fake drums as he's coming across. You use them yourself sometimes to lay a beat before tracking for real, right? Or did I miss-read that somewhere.
I used to love programming drums. Putting all those little blobs in the squares and making a beat. It was an education for me. I hadn't a clue and learnt, the hard way and with help from the likes of Greg along the way to make them sound better. Now I'm learning to play and using an Electric Kit with midi drums. Hahaha. The anti-drummer!
In the near future, I will have a real kit and will embark on another learning adventure.
I don't think Greg is as anti fake drums as he's coming across. You use them yourself sometimes to lay a beat before tracking for real, right? Or did I miss-read that somewhere.
I used to love programming drums. Putting all those little blobs in the squares and making a beat. It was an education for me. I hadn't a clue and learnt, the hard way and with help from the likes of Greg along the way to make them sound better. Now I'm learning to play and using an Electric Kit with midi drums. Hahaha. The anti-drummer!
In the near future, I will have a real kit and will embark on another learning adventure.
Tadpui
Well-known member
You aint wrong, but man, that takes time and effort! And getting dressed! Aint nobody got time for that. They need the instant pants-free no-effort satisfaction of drum software.
Hey, I resemble that remark! All of my recordings are guaranteed to be pants-free
...well, I don't count flannel pajamas as pants, anyways.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Hey, I resemble that remark! All of my recordings are guaranteed to be pants-free
There's really nothing wrong with that IMO. I drum in my underwear all the time.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yup...that is true, and it's not just drum recording...recording as a whole is becoming a lost art.
I have less and less desire to respond to and be helpful when I see a poster who is already showing that he has no interest in doing anything the right way, and/or especially when it appears to him like it's the "hard" way.
One of the most irritating "disclaimers" for me that some people will make on home-rec forums is to say,
"I'm not looking to sound pro, I just want to record this for myself"...or something like that.
OK...so then...you want it to sound half-assed, and you'll be happy with that?
I get it...not everyone is willing to or able to or can afford to "go in deep"...but still, raise the bar, don't lower it.
That's been one of my main recording goals from day-one, when I got my first 4-track tape deck...to eventually get as pro a sound as possible. It's OK if you don't get the audio engineering & mixing award of the year...but at least respect your music and try to make it the best that you can, and respect the art of recording.
One thing that no one can deny...even if you go back, way back, before computers and samples and the whole home-rec boom...the fundamentals of good recording apply. Be it one mic and a 4-track tape deck or the most tricked out DAW money can buy.
Yup...and I have to say, many of our MP3 Clinic offerings that feature real drums played by real drummers often have the most "improvement" comments focused on...the drums.
So there are no guarantees.
There are two main aspects...the sound and the groove.
IMO (YMMV)...sampled drums often have the better sound quality (though there are crappy ones too) than home-rec drums, because most have been recorded in great rooms, with great gear, and the kits used are usually selected for their better sound qualities, and they also get played by top drummers.
Not saying a home-rec guy can't get a good drum sound...just saying that it's often more of a challenge for most home-rec environments.
The groove is where the real drummer (assuming he has the chops) will win out over sample sequencing for a lot of home-rec sample users.
If sample users would spend more time on the grooves, and learn what it takes to sound like a drummer playing...it would go a long way toward getting good drum tracks.
That said...that's the "hard" way...and just like recording fundamentals, it often ends up being easier for many home-rec guys to grab something canned, loop the shit out of it, and call it a drum track.
An image I don't want stuck in my head...ever.
G
Greg_L
Banned
That is correct. I lay out a beat with fills and changes with EZ Drummer. I know what I can or can't play, so I make a drum track as Greg would play it. Try out different speeds, fills, patterns, etc. When I'm satisfied, I track it for real the same way. Instead of writing drums on the fly or though trial-and-error at the kit, I "write" it with a drum program and by the time I track it for real I know how it goes and I can just fly right through it.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Yup...that is true, and it's not just drum recording...recording as a whole is becoming a lost art.
I have less and less desire to respond to and be helpful is when I see a poster who is already showing that he has no interest in doing anything the right way, and/or especially when it appears to him like it's the "hard" way.
One of the most irritating "disclaimers" for me that some people will make on home-rec forums is to say,
"I'm not looking to sound pro, I just want to record this for myself"...or something like that.
OK...so then...you want it to sound half-assed, and you'll be happy with that?
I get it...not everyone is willing to or able to or can afford to "go in deep"...but still, raise the bar, don't lower it.
That's been one of my main recording goals from day-one, when I got my first 4-track tape deck...to eventually get as pro a sound as possible. It's OK if you don't get the audio engineering & mixing award of the year...but at least respect your music and try to make it the best that you can, and respect the art of recording.
One thing that no one can deny...even if you go back, way back, before computers and samples and the whole home-rec boom...the fundamentals of good recording apply. Be it one mic and a 4-track tape deck or the most tricked out DAW money can buy.
Yup...and I have to say, many of our MP3 Clinic offerings that feature real drums played by real drummers often have the most "improvement" comments focused on...the drums.
So there are no guarantees.
There are two main aspects...the sound and the groove. IMO (YMMV)...sampled drums often have the better sound quality (though there are crappy ones too), because most have been recorded in great rooms, with great gear, and the kits are usually some selected for their better sound qualities, and they also get played by top drummers.
Not saying a home-rec guy can't get a good drum sound...just saying that it's often more of a challenge for most home-rec environments.
The groove is where the real drummer (assuming he has the chops) will win out over sample sequencing for a lot of home-rec sample users.
If sample users would spend more time on the grooves, and learn what it takes...it go a long way toward getting good drum tracks.
That said...it's the "hard" way...and just like recording fundamentals, it often ends up being easier for many home-rec guys to grab something canned, loop the shit out of it, and call it a drum track.
Yes, 100%, amen.