fat_fleet
Swollen Member
Yup, not only that but the public care less about the music than stuff like the singer's haircut, whether or not s/he's bisexual, whether they're vegetarian or eat meat, etc.
Yup, not only that but the public care less about the music than stuff like the singer's haircut, whether or not s/he's bisexual, whether they're vegetarian or eat meat, etc.
Xcaliber
New member
This is one of the best threads I've read on here. Great discussion.
I am a "talentless hack" who uses sims and virtual drums to make my music, but I do it out of necessity. I just don't have the time or know enough musicians who I can get together and collaborate with. I wish I did because I think it would boost my confidence, skill and create better music in the process. I'd much rather get together with other musicians and write/record music together collaboratively, but it's just not in the cards for me at this point. I hope someday I can change that.
As for using real instruments and micing up to record, I'd much rather do that, but as I think Greg said, I don't have the budget for a bunch of great amps so I use sims to get the sound I want. I'd love to play through an expensive head into a vintage cab and crank the volume to get that "perfect tone", but I just can't at this point. I record in my basement, usually late at night, and sims work well for me. I'm also not trying to produce a hit record or even, at this point, putting music out for others to enjoy.
Another thing that resonated with me in this thread was Greg's comment about getting caught up in the choices when searching for a guitar tone. That happens to me all the time and it hampers the creative process for me. I end up spending most of the time I have to write/record messing with amps and cabs and settings and then I don't even get to making noise/music. My next step is to try and address that and get to making more noise and less settings changes.
I am a "talentless hack" who uses sims and virtual drums to make my music, but I do it out of necessity. I just don't have the time or know enough musicians who I can get together and collaborate with. I wish I did because I think it would boost my confidence, skill and create better music in the process. I'd much rather get together with other musicians and write/record music together collaboratively, but it's just not in the cards for me at this point. I hope someday I can change that.
As for using real instruments and micing up to record, I'd much rather do that, but as I think Greg said, I don't have the budget for a bunch of great amps so I use sims to get the sound I want. I'd love to play through an expensive head into a vintage cab and crank the volume to get that "perfect tone", but I just can't at this point. I record in my basement, usually late at night, and sims work well for me. I'm also not trying to produce a hit record or even, at this point, putting music out for others to enjoy.
Another thing that resonated with me in this thread was Greg's comment about getting caught up in the choices when searching for a guitar tone. That happens to me all the time and it hampers the creative process for me. I end up spending most of the time I have to write/record messing with amps and cabs and settings and then I don't even get to making noise/music. My next step is to try and address that and get to making more noise and less settings changes.
Farview
Well-known member
...and what ever happened to them?
That's because you have to to have good songs, a personality, a look, be able to self-promote, etc... It takes more than being a great song writer to be a rock star. Your talent has to be multi-faceted.
Yet they had a record company backing them. It's not like they did it on a cassette 4-track, Sholz worked for Polaroid and was making a decent buck, so it was a 24 track studio in his basement. The vocals were recorded and the album was mixed at Capitol studios in LA.
It can and it does, from time to time, rise to the top. However, the 'top' doesn't pay anything anymore.
ShofB
Sometimes here...
I still don't get where you are coming from. You seem to be saying that the process matters more than the results. If the music connects with the listener then that is all that matters. As I said before the rest is BS.
G
Greg_L
Banned
That much is obvious, so don't worry about it. I could explain it to you, but people get upset when I do that, so I won't.
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
Agreed. I don't understand being caught up in what amps and what guitars people are using, it's about the song you create and write. The attitude in the performance of the song. The emotion it contains and evokes. That's all rock music is. Whether it's amp sims or mega-huge combos, it's all the same sh*t. Not everyone can afford the equipment, nothing wrong with using what you have to make rock music - in fact, um, that's almost more rock than anything. If it pisses someone off that I use an amp sim, then i'll use it again and piss them off more. Rock. what.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Fair enough. You're gonna be really rock and roll playing a gig with a mouse and laptops. Nothing screams rock and roll like a stack of ipads. Wait, you probably don't play gigs. That's fine. This is home RECORDING. I get it. Recording sound. Hold up, sims make no sound. Damn! In case you're wondering where I'm going with this, I expressed my understanding of sims and samples in my earliest posts of this thread. I get it. I really, really do get it. I know, maybe more than most in here, how expensive and loud and cumbersome real drums and amps can be. So let me ask you, Mr Rock and Roll, some simple questions just to see where you're coming from with all of this anger and defiance. Do you celebrate amp sims because they're easy? Cheap? Can you not afford real gear? If you could afford real gear, would you use it? I'm just curious. No malice, no bad intent. I'm genuinely curious if a sim guy would use real shit if he could.
andrushkiwt
Well-known member
lol, who's the angry one? Use whatever it is you want to use, as long as the music is sincere and means something to you. someone hurt your feelings...bad.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Now, hold up, slow down. I don't necessarily disagree with that. Will you answer my questions?
Resurrect
New member
Yes. Use whatever you want to. I just won't listen to most of it. 
But somebody probably will. And somebody (heaven forbid! 
) will probably actually like it. I have nothing against people using sims and drum machines and synth pads and whatever other digital whatnot when they have no other choice. But when you can use real instruments and real mics and real sound, and still don't, Then you're just being lazy. And if that's the case, then I don't think your music is really from the heart. I'm not saying don't use sims and computer generated signals. If you get a sound from one that you like and can't get from a real instrument, then by all means use it. I'm referring to the dudes who use drum samples and try to make it sound like a real kit. I'm siding with Greg on this one, and I am also curious to hear your answer to his question. I would really like to know. (no matter how much the truth may hurt me. lol)
But somebody probably will. And somebody (heaven forbid! ) will probably actually like it. I have nothing against people using sims and drum machines and synth pads and whatever other digital whatnot when they have no other choice. But when you can use real instruments and real mics and real sound, and still don't, Then you're just being lazy. And if that's the case, then I don't think your music is really from the heart. I'm not saying don't use sims and computer generated signals. If you get a sound from one that you like and can't get from a real instrument, then by all means use it. I'm referring to the dudes who use drum samples and try to make it sound like a real kit. I'm siding with Greg on this one, and I am also curious to hear your answer to his question. I would really like to know. (no matter how much the truth may hurt me. lol)
TimN
New member
What is "real sound," and where do I find it? You know, when I use drum samples, I'm not trying to make it sound like a real kit. Obviously, sometimes, one wants the fake drums to sound like real drums, but not always . . . . If it sounds like a real kit, whatever. If it sounds like what I want it to sound like (is that a real kit? No?), then I got just what I wanted. I'll put fills and whatever else in to make it sound like drums, of course. What are you trying to do? What are you trying to make? It sounds like you're developing some kind of weird "purist" test . . . "I'm referring to the dudes who use drum samples and try to make it sound like a real kit." Well, why not? What does that even mean? Look, people are going to use every conceivable mish mash of stuff to make the music they want to make. I play with a real good drummer now and then, but he's rarely around, so I don't even think about trying to get him to do anything for or with me. I use drum samples. I actually used samples to try and imitate his playing, because I like it. Big deal. Is a "synth pad" somehow not a real instrument? I use them. Am I lazy? Even if I could afford to buy, say, a Moog analog synth, I wouldn't bother. Did I cross the line? Is any kind of creativity that one conjures up with whatever might be the thing to use not coming from "the heart?" Listen to what you like, and play what you want to play, and make music the way you want to make it. One is somewhere between genius and hackery, and what you're using is irrelevant.
Resurrect
New member
As long as you are using your digital tools to create something real and authentic in the sense that it is an expression or out pouring of something deep inside of you: then you are doing it right. Even if you don't use real drums, real guitars, etc. Because you are going to pour yourself into your music to make sure it is the best it possibly can be. If you are simply doing your music to gain fans or make money, you are doing it wrong.
You said that your drums are not meant to replace a real kit. That's what I'm saying. If you find a sound that you like and can't get from a real kit, GREAT! Use it. If you have the ability to use a real kit, and want the sound of a real kit, and use samples instead...
If you don't have a drummer, but do have samples. And you want that real drum sound. Well, I personally wouldn't even put in drums. That's how strongly I feel about it. But if you want to. Great. Do it. Synth pads, digital sounds, and the like have their place. The song "Battle Cry" by the rock group Skillet starts out with digital percussion, then the momentum builds and the electric guitars and real drum kit kick in. For what they are using it for it's great. It sounds really good, and adds another dimension to the song. If they had used that synthy percusion for the whole song, I would hate it. But as it is, the song ranks as one of my favorites by that group. I just can't stand it that samples/plugins/synths are starting to take over the music world.
Of course, in the end, who am I to say what you can and can't use? I'm a purist and am going to defend my petty little opinions to the last breath. As will you. And everybody else on this forum, and probably in the world.
You said that your drums are not meant to replace a real kit. That's what I'm saying. If you find a sound that you like and can't get from a real kit, GREAT! Use it. If you have the ability to use a real kit, and want the sound of a real kit, and use samples instead...
If you don't have a drummer, but do have samples. And you want that real drum sound. Well, I personally wouldn't even put in drums. That's how strongly I feel about it. But if you want to. Great. Do it. Synth pads, digital sounds, and the like have their place. The song "Battle Cry" by the rock group Skillet starts out with digital percussion, then the momentum builds and the electric guitars and real drum kit kick in. For what they are using it for it's great. It sounds really good, and adds another dimension to the song. If they had used that synthy percusion for the whole song, I would hate it. But as it is, the song ranks as one of my favorites by that group. I just can't stand it that samples/plugins/synths are starting to take over the music world.
Of course, in the end, who am I to say what you can and can't use? I'm a purist and am going to defend my petty little opinions to the last breath. As will you. And everybody else on this forum, and probably in the world.
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DM60
Well-known member
The Beatles killed real rock and roll. After them, it just became, cool pop. I mean really. Rock as we think about it is 3-5 young guys, playing songs as good as they can, with whatever instruments they can afford, singing about things that are real to them. After that, it is progressive pop, hard pop, acid Pop, grunge pop, blah, blah.
Rock and roll is supposed to be real, no overdubs and 100 tracks of stuff. You record what you can play live. That is Rock and roll to me. Pure and simple.
Rock and roll is supposed to be real, no overdubs and 100 tracks of stuff. You record what you can play live. That is Rock and roll to me. Pure and simple.
BroKen_H
Re-member
So, if a band uses e-drums live, is it okay for them to use samples in studio?
If a guitarist uses a Waves plugin live and just has empty Marshall cabs for looks...
This really is an amazing thread. There is so much diversity in opinion and application. You can't define what is right for everyone. A Picasso is not a Rembrandt. You can't run a plumbing business on a catering business plan...
If you define "Rock" in a narrow band spectrum of the genre, you might make an argument for doing things in a certain way, but whatever happened to "If it sounds good, it is good."?
If a guitarist uses a Waves plugin live and just has empty Marshall cabs for looks...
This really is an amazing thread. There is so much diversity in opinion and application. You can't define what is right for everyone. A Picasso is not a Rembrandt. You can't run a plumbing business on a catering business plan...
If you define "Rock" in a narrow band spectrum of the genre, you might make an argument for doing things in a certain way, but whatever happened to "If it sounds good, it is good."?
G
Greg_L
Banned
Then those bands are intensely lame.
Resurrect
New member
Is there a difference between "rock" and "rock and roll"?
DM60
Well-known member
See where you have taken a left turn is you are defining music. The question is "Rock and Roll". Like saying the difference between folk art and classic art. You are trying to skew the question.
Resurrect
New member
I don't believe anybody is TRYING to skew anything, though It may have happened inadvertently.
R
RFR
Well-known member
I don't know how the survey is going or even if any of us have participated in it.
However I do know that this thread has taken off.
In regards to the original question, yes. I think a home studio is capable of producing an "authentic" rock recording.
Its all in the approach.
Most young rock bands have always started out at home. In someone's garage.
You got your songs, sound and chops down in someone's garage. Usually it was at the drummer's house because his parents and neighbors had a tolerance for noise.
However all good things come to an end and at some point you got kicked out and got your first taste of "pay to play"....... the rehearsal studio.
Anyway, those first adventures in the garages were quite authentic, and quite rock and roll.
3 or 4 guys or girls in one room rocking out.
If you were any good or not is a different issue.
Fast forward to today.
Never before has the technology been so abundant and inexpensive, as well as easy to get, as now.
Hell, you dont even have to leave your house. You research, talk about and learn what gear you need on the net. And when you are ready to purchase, you just click a button. Bam! Less than a week later gear shows up at your door.
Life made easy. You couldn't do that in the 60s, 70s, 80s, or even the 90s.
So today the technology is available to record authentic rock and roll.
But technology is a double edged sword.
It has also created a slew of one man bands with fake sounds, fake amps, fake vocals, etc.
Now dont get me wrong, these synthetic computer generated sounds can be quite realistic and be used very well.
The problem lies in the lack of a band.
instead of 3 or 4 live human beings interacting and creating music on real time, you now have quite a few "lone wolf" artists.
Some can do it, but most can't. Not all of us are on a level of Todd Rundgren.
Very few people can do it all themselves, and do it well.
In a band, with the interaction, you are forced to improve. There is always the drummer or singer to tell you your solo sucked. It works in the positive as well.
Besides, with a band, sooner or later you gigged. You can't really get good without gigging. Its a whole different world being up on stage in front of real people.
So with home recording having become so easy to do, almost anyone with some musical skill can do it.
So you get a lot of pure shit. The guy is trying to wear too many hats, and trying to do things he or she isn't good at.
One may be a great guitar player but a horrible writer. And many variations of that theme.
I have heard a lot of great stuff come from a one man writing, production performance team, but it is not common.
The best "authentic" rock and roll comes from a band. Real players with real instruments, recording real songs.
And yes, it can be done in a home studio. You just have to do it right.
Edit:
But then again, today you can collaborate with people you've never met, and may never meet in person.
It's a fucking brave new world!
However I do know that this thread has taken off.
In regards to the original question, yes. I think a home studio is capable of producing an "authentic" rock recording.
Its all in the approach.
Most young rock bands have always started out at home. In someone's garage.
You got your songs, sound and chops down in someone's garage. Usually it was at the drummer's house because his parents and neighbors had a tolerance for noise.
However all good things come to an end and at some point you got kicked out and got your first taste of "pay to play"....... the rehearsal studio.
Anyway, those first adventures in the garages were quite authentic, and quite rock and roll.
3 or 4 guys or girls in one room rocking out.
If you were any good or not is a different issue.
Fast forward to today.
Never before has the technology been so abundant and inexpensive, as well as easy to get, as now.
Hell, you dont even have to leave your house. You research, talk about and learn what gear you need on the net. And when you are ready to purchase, you just click a button. Bam! Less than a week later gear shows up at your door.
Life made easy. You couldn't do that in the 60s, 70s, 80s, or even the 90s.
So today the technology is available to record authentic rock and roll.
But technology is a double edged sword.
It has also created a slew of one man bands with fake sounds, fake amps, fake vocals, etc.
Now dont get me wrong, these synthetic computer generated sounds can be quite realistic and be used very well.
The problem lies in the lack of a band.
instead of 3 or 4 live human beings interacting and creating music on real time, you now have quite a few "lone wolf" artists.
Some can do it, but most can't. Not all of us are on a level of Todd Rundgren.
Very few people can do it all themselves, and do it well.
In a band, with the interaction, you are forced to improve. There is always the drummer or singer to tell you your solo sucked. It works in the positive as well.
Besides, with a band, sooner or later you gigged. You can't really get good without gigging. Its a whole different world being up on stage in front of real people.
So with home recording having become so easy to do, almost anyone with some musical skill can do it.
So you get a lot of pure shit. The guy is trying to wear too many hats, and trying to do things he or she isn't good at.
One may be a great guitar player but a horrible writer. And many variations of that theme.
I have heard a lot of great stuff come from a one man writing, production performance team, but it is not common.
The best "authentic" rock and roll comes from a band. Real players with real instruments, recording real songs.
And yes, it can be done in a home studio. You just have to do it right.
Edit:
But then again, today you can collaborate with people you've never met, and may never meet in person.
It's a fucking brave new world!
Last edited:
Resurrect
New member
I don't know how the survey is going or even if any of us have participated in it.
However I do know that this thread has taken off.
In regards to the original question, yes. I think a home studio is capable of producing an "authentic" rock recording.
Its all in the approach.
Most young rock bands have always started out at home. In someone's garage.
You got your songs, sound and chops down in someone's garage. Usually it was at the drummer's house because his parents and neighbors had a tolerance for noise.
However all good things come to an end and at some point you got kicked out and got your first taste of "pay to play"....... the rehearsal studio.
Anyway, those first adventures in the garages were quite authentic, and quite rock and roll.
3 or 4 guys or girls in one room rocking out.
If you were any good or not is a different issue.
Fast forward to today.
Never before has the technology been so abundant and inexpensive, as well as easy to get, as now.
Hell, you dont even have to leave your house. You research, talk about and learn what gear you need on the net. And when you are ready to purchase, you just click a button. Bam! Less than a week later gear shows up at your door.
Life made easy. You couldn't do that in the 60s, 70s, 80s, or even the 90s.
So today the technology is available to record authentic rock and roll.
But technology is a double edged sword.
It has also created a slew of one man bands with fake sounds, fake amps, fake vocals, etc.
Now dont get me wrong, these synthetic computer generated sounds can be quite realistic and be used very well.
The problem lies in the lack of a band.
instead of 3 or 4 live human beings interacting and creating music on real time, you now have quite a few "lone wolf" artists.
Some can do it, but most can't. Not all of us are on a level of Todd Rundgren.
Very few people can do it all themselves, and do it well.
In a band, with the interaction, you are forced to improve. There is always the drummer or singer to tell you your solo sucked. It works in the positive as well.
Besides, with a band, sooner or later you gigged. You can't really get good without gigging. Its a whole different world being up on stage in front of real people.
So with home recording having become so easy to do, almost anyone with some musical skill can do it.
So you get a lot of pure shit. The guy is trying to wear too many hats, and trying to do things he or she isn't good at.
One may be a great guitar player but a horrible writer. And many variations of that theme.
I have heard a lot of great stuff come from a one man writing, production performance team, but it is not common.
The best "authentic" rock and roll comes from a band. Real players with real instruments, recording real songs.
And yes, it can be done in a home studio. You just have to do it right.
Edit:
But then again, today you can collaborate with people you've never met, and may never meet in person.
It's a fucking brave new world!
I think this is the first really good and thoughtful post in this whole discussion. And I agree 101%!