Scarlet and Sable - another shot at the Noiz Lab mastering suite

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mjbphotos

mjbphotos

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This is another song where I'm pretty satisfied with the mix, but all comments welcome. It's a fairly long song, so I'd appreciate if you listen to at least one verse and chorus (dynamically, it doesn't change much from those sections).

Here it is with just the Kjerhaus limiter on it to bring the mix up to -0.3:



Here it is with the Noiz Lab suite on it. I didn't use the post-compressor EQ or the 'transient designer this time.

 
They both sound about equal loudness to me. I think the Noiz lab version is a bit clearer. But I thought it was missing a bit of the low end. On balance, I suppose I like the Noiz lab version better, but there were aspects of each that I thought were better than the other.
 
Kind of where I'm at with these Noiz Lab plugins. the volumes should be equal as the limiting is going to -0.3 on both. If the version is a bit more 'clear', is that because i'm compressing lightly before the limiter compared to the Kjerhaus which just has a limiter?
As I'm probably going to be stuck 'mastering' all the songs for my next album (unless someone steps forward to volunteer!), I'm looking for MY best solution at this point. The Kjerhaus master limiter is simple to use - I just crank the knob until I see just a little compression happening.
 
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The Noiz one sounds a lot more compressed and duller. The other one is undeniably better, IMO.
Are these the same mix? The acoustic guitar is further panned left in the Noiz Lab version
 
mjbphotos said:
the volumes hsoudl be equal as the liiting is going to -0.3 on both.
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That's the peak volume they're hitting. But average volume (RMS) is a better indicator of our perception of loudness. Two songs that both hit -0.3dbfs could have significantly different RMS measurements.
 
TripleM said:
That's the peak volume they're hitting. But average volume (RMS) is a better indicator of our perception of loudness. Two songs that both hit -0.3dbfs could have significantly different RMS measurements.
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Exactly what I was going to say. On a limiter, you can set it to peak at -.3, but you can still squash the shit out of one and not the other. They'll both still peak at -.3, but one will average a lot louder than the other, and that difference will definitely be audible. I think that even if you put the threshold at the same level on both, they can still each produce different results. I've done shoot outs with limiters, where I put both at the same threshold, they both peak at -.3, but one is pumping like a mofo, while the other one sounds really smooth.
 
Schwarzenyaeger said:
The Noiz one sounds a lot more compressed and duller. The other one is undeniably better, IMO.
Are these the same mix? The acoustic guitar is further panned left in the Noiz Lab version
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Yes, they're the same mix. Possibly this is the Noiz Lab mid-side EQ, which I just tweaked a bit.

RAMI said:
Exactly what I was going to say. On a limiter, you can set it to peak at -.3, but you can still squash the shit out of one and not the other. They'll both still peak at -.3, but one will average a lot louder than the other, and that difference will definitely be audible. I think that even if you put the threshold at the same level on both, they can still each produce different results. I've done shoot outs with limiters, where I put both at the same threshold, they both peak at -.3, but one is pumping like a mofo, while the other one sounds really smooth.
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Yeah, I think that's what's happening - the Noiz Lab limiter is pumping much more than the Kjaerhus.


Thanks, you guys have confirmed that I'm just going to stick with the Kjaerhus limiter at this point. Maybe the N-L system would work better if I had more experience with it, but as it is I'm not getting much of anything good out of it.
 
I'm listening, bouncing back and forth between the two mixes...

The intro sounds very similar between the two to me. When the band kicks in, the NoizLab version sounds a little darker, but I might like it a little more. It's really a close call, I can't detect a big difference. But I'm fighting a head/chest cold so I'm not at my most perceptive at the moment.

As far as the mix, I think that this is best one of yours that I've heard so far. The vocal delivery is more even, more confident. The mix sounds good to me. Could maybe shave a little high end off of the hi-hat to blend it in a bit more, or maybe just turning it down would do the trick. Nice song, it has that 70s British folk kind of sound that I've heard from you before.
 
Tadpui said:
I'm listening, bouncing back and forth between the two mixes...

The intro sounds very similar between the two to me. When the band kicks in, the NoizLab version sounds a little darker, but I might like it a little more. It's really a close call, I can't detect a big difference. But I'm fighting a head/chest cold so I'm not at my most perceptive at the moment.

As far as the mix, I think that this is best one of yours that I've heard so far. The vocal delivery is more even, more confident. The mix sounds good to me. Could maybe shave a little high end off of the hi-hat to blend it in a bit more, or maybe just turning it down would do the trick. Nice song, it has that 70s British folk kind of sound that I've heard from you before.
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Thanks. I'll listen to the HH again. This was one of those 'lucky' mixes that fell in place easily - I haven't messed with it much for a year.
 
Main guitar that leans left is coming across as being a little more 'present' than any other element in the mix, so it sticks out a bit. Everything else seems to sit back in the mix a bit.

Getting a real Blue Oyster Cult feel from the general vibe of this song. The whole mix has a 'vintage vibe' to it, where is seems sort of pushed back and dark.

Whoa... whoa... whoa... hold the phone. The above was all based on listening to the second one. I just listened to the first one and I am not getting the same overall impression at all. The first post sounds much more open.

The second posting has none of the air and clarity of the first one, and is overly dark and maybe what I would describe as dull. Sounds 'vintage'.

You know what, too? That sense I am describing above with the left leaning guitar? I am also not getting that sense in the first mix at all.

No contest for me. Night and day. The first version sounds a million times better.


Mike, aside from this comparison, I must say that I really like this song. When did you pen this? Is this one of your more recent ones? This one is definitely doing it for me.
 
kindafishy said:
Main guitar that leans left is coming across as being a little more 'present' than any other element in the mix, so it sticks out a bit. Everything else seems to sit back in the mix a bit.

Getting a real Blue Oyster Cult feel from the general vibe of this song. The whole mix has a 'vintage vibe' to it, where is seems sort of pushed back and dark.

Whoa... whoa... whoa... hold the phone. The above was all based on listening to the second one. I just listened to the first one and I am not getting the same overall impression at all. The first post sounds much more open.

The second posting has none of the air and clarity of the first one, and is overly dark and maybe what I would describe as dull. Sounds 'vintage'.

You know what, too? That sense I am describing above with the left leaning guitar? I am also not getting that sense in the first mix at all.

No contest for me. Night and day. The first version sounds a million times better.


Mike, aside from this comparison, I must say that I really like this song. When did you pen this? Is this one of your more recent ones? This one is definitely doing it for me.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the listen and comments. Definitely confirms that I'm going to forget using the Noiz-Lab thing for any mastering. I'll just do the mixes the best I can, then boost the volume with a master limiter as I've been doing.

I wrote this about a year and half ago, recorded it soon after. Other than some small tweaks, the mix has been what it is. No doubt a 'simple' song like this - minimal number of parts - makes it easier for that to happen.
 
I listened to both and I also like the 1st one the best. Great mix. I really like the acoustic guitar sound.
Good performances on everything too.
 
Really nice performance and sound overall. To me this is reminiscent of Moody Blues and the softer side of ELP. The mix is well done, but if this were a work in progress I would consider a slight change in the arrangement and bring in a real live flute player to trade those soft licks and runs behind the verses. My ears are not keen enough, nor my monitors good enough to recognize much difference in your limiter settings. Nice flow and I especially enjoy the chorus.
 
I'm hearing the Moody Blues and a bit of BOC. I agree with just about all that the first mix sounds better. I do have to say the lead bit sounds better on the second. Could use some 6k or there'bouts on the first.
 
The Noiz-Lab guy wasn't too happy with my (and the rest of your) opinions when he did a follow-up!
 
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