Got ripped off, first two mixes, wanting to get better

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AntiqueRoman

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Don't want to moan too much so I'll keep it short and I hate the idea of self promoting lol

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/songwriting/905429-can-i-get-honest-opinion-my-music.html

That was a post I made a long time ago in regards to an album I paid to get mixed by a local "mixer/producer" whom taught me the meaning of getting your money's worth among other things such as his claims of him being a superior guitarist than me and everyone in the area (not even in context, just a random cut down), and how he is (wasn't) mixing for Godsmack which was to better explain to me why it took him 10 months to mix a 17 song album poorly. In all honesty, I truly just believe he wasn't accustomed to the type of music I make, e.g. a reggae producer would have a different and possibly worse idea in approaching a metal project than a veteran in that genre. That's not to say that can't or hasn't happened, I'm just going off Albini's idea in his essay "Problem with Music".

Fast forward a year later after a mopey depression due to people being too fatigued after just a single song (of my life's work up to that point), supposedly due to all the improper effects creating a dissonance, the subdued focal points of the song and the eq mush, I decided to take matters into my own hands.

Side note: I'm extremely sorry if this just seems to be negative I'm just trying to paint the picture of why I am trying to become an engineer/producer to better help my projects, lower my overhead, and possibly help other people in my area whom have also had these things happen to them.

After obsessing and falling into a very strange fascination with Albini and his methodology I found myself subscribing to a lot of the ideas he presented such as catering to a band's sound as opposed to blindly applying "Pensado's Magic Reverb Settings for Radio Ready Pop Vocals" (very popular with the previously mentioned "producer") or even the idea of "engineer" over "producer". I swung into action and researched the best equipment for my money, the proper techniques (lots of Owsinski and various Vig and Albini interviews) and rented out a rehearsal studio for my next studio outing.

The following are songs that to the best of my knowledge are hopefully an improvement from the other mixes done by some one else (see: theantiqueromans.bandcamp.com)

This is the second song to date that I have mixed called Poison The Water:
https://soundcloud.com/the-antique-romans/poison-the-water

The first song I mixed which I know has a bit too much going on in the end (remixing soon) is Noir I: Lehigh Acres:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdsvznmVt9A

All drums are live (the first song only has one fake instrument and it is the electronic drums at the end) and I'm more than happy to dive into whatever process anyone would like to discuss so that whatever ideas are presented I can incorporate into my next mixes for this album.

I know that these aren't exactly radio friendly singles but my aim for these mixes were to really emphasize clarity and professionalism with the mixes. I want them to sound good for what they are trying to accomplish even though "good" means something COMPLETELY different between Steely Dan, Britney Spears or The Jesus Lizard.

Thank you so much for your time! Any feedback is REALLY REALLY appreciated even if it were to refer to a resource you think could help me in the future

- Chris

TL:DR - Check out my jams and please leave some feedback
 
Sorry lol just wondering if my mixes so far are good and not damaging the actual songs. Last mixes I got weren't from me and were put together REALLY poorly. Would you guys press mixes like this or are there glaring mix errors like mush or very harsh frequencies a novice mixer wouldn't hear as opposed to just mix preferences? :p
 
I think a lot of the comments you got in the GS thread still apply.
Not sure if you really got "ripped off" or if that's the best considering what they had to work with. Mixing is not for involved fixing.

The mixes in both links are...for lack of a better word....messy.
Too much stuff all over the place, and it requires lots of level and EQ balance work to make it all gel...much of which should be gotten at the tracking stage.

I think you need to spend time learning more basic track/mixing instead of tackling all that "sonic soundscape" kind of stuff as your first efforts. There's no quick "change this and that" to give here.
It's more of a need to progress through the tracking/mixing learning process going from basics and then moving up to very complex mixes.
You should strip out all the excess ear candy and get the foundation right, then bring the other elements in one at a time and don't let them disrupt that foundation.
 
miroslav said:
I think a lot of the comments you got in the GS thread still apply.
Not sure if you really got "ripped off" or if that's the best considering what they had to work with. Mixing is not for involved fixing.

The mixes in both links are...for lack of a better word....messy.
Too much stuff all over the place, and it requires lots of level and EQ balance work to make it all gel...much of which should be gotten at the tracking stage.

I think you need to spend time learning more basic track/mixing instead of tackling all that "sonic soundscape" kind of stuff as your first efforts. There's no quick "change this and that" to give here.
It's more of a need to progress through the tracking/mixing learning process going from basics and then moving up to very complex mixes.
You should strip out all the excess ear candy and get the foundation right, then bring the other elements in one at a time and don't let them disrupt that foundation.
Click to expand...

^^^^^Exactly this.^^^^^

"Mixing" is not about saving, fixing, and salvaging. 90% of a good mix is about the tracking, recording, and arranging. You can't give someone shitty or mediocre sounding tracks and expect them to come up with a pro sounding final product. I'm not saying your tracks are shitty or mediocre, I'm just stating a general fact. For example, you can't record vocals in your closet and drums in your bedroom and then wonder why someone couldn't mix them into a masterpiece. It just will not happen, because it's impossible. Again, I don't know where or how your tracks were recorded, I'm just stating general truths.
 
Post the mixes in the MP3 clinic supforum and you'll get more people to listen to them.

Prepare to be butthurt. It's the only way.
 
Thread moved into MP3 clinic.

I found the music to be interesting and original, and it would be a challenge to mix. There are so many directions one could take.

Someone above noted that the mixes were 'messy'. I tend to agree, but I have a feeling that that is part of what your style is all about.
 
I agree about the cluttered sound. I found it a bit hard to listen to but I guess that that's really just all the elements of the song.
 
First thing I noticed is the snare panned right. Messy for sure- there's a lot of background 'stuff' happening (voices mostly) which just distracts from the song. The lyrics can't be distinguished most of the time, and the sweeping back and forth in places is strange.
 
The first song poison in the water....not the kind of music that really takes me anywhere but I thought the mix was good believe it or not. I liked the mix cause it was a tad messy, sounded "real" like it was done in the 80s or something. I really think the drums almost had a funky tape like sound to them!
 
mjbphotos said:
The lyrics can't be distinguished most of the time, and the sweeping back and forth in places is strange.
Click to expand...

which is precisely why I liked it. I'm so tired of everything being normal, it's nice to just hear something once in a while that's totally absurd
 
The second song, Lehigh Acres is very tough to listen to. Bass pumped so hard it sounds completely clipped even at low volume. I was fighting not to turn it off at about 1:45 from sheer boredom. Can't understand most of the distorted vocals. After that, it got more interesting...in a good way. Glad I stuck it out.
I like what you're doing musically with the first. But it's all over the place. Maybe that's what you're after, but it's interesting to follow...not (for me) in a good way.
Also listened to nobody, nowhere, nothing...it's very interesting, but again, all over the place. Some decent mixes within the mix. Some with great bass sound, some with good guitar tone, some with good drums and bright cymbals, but rarely the whole enchilada.
 
Listening as I was reading the thread... Not sure I need to respond since the OP seems gone. But I will anyway.

The weird panning on this is the first thing that struck me. It's like there are two songs playing, one on the right and another one on the left.

The other thing is that the vocals are way back and distorted. Much of them are unintelligible.

A little sloppiness in the playing here and there.
 
OP is still here and taking notes. I just felt responding might see like I'm being a "try-hard". I'm very scared when it comes to how one is perceived on the internet lol but I'll give it a shot. I'll address everything in the best order I can.

It needs to be said though that my inspirations as a producer/engineer come from "strange" places primarily
1. Roy Thomas Baker (early Queen - especially this song)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ckRX0k9owAY
2. Trey Spruance/Mike Patton (Mr. Bungle)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IihUMbPucUU
3. One last reference : Diablo Swing Orchestra
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=osTu38yuuHo

My personal favorites include Queen, The Beatles, The Residents, Mr. Bungle, and Frank Zappa. That being said I like "busy" mixes but as many people have hinted at in this thread: The mix must have clarity and punch before the ear candy.
I love the "eyebrows" as Dweezil calls them:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci9v8wRhqZc

I like experimental music as the aforementioned 5 favorite bands were involved in. (Maybe not the Beatles as much but they still have Revolution 9 and stuff like the Abbey Road medley.)

I did at first have what some would call a very rudimentary mix where everything was where it belongs and I didn't do rough cuts, it had proper gain staging, eq, comp and the like. The people I showed those mixes though were "tired" by those mixes because they went nowhere. That said more about my arranging, but the song was rushed so I cut instruments to focus on different elements.

The biggest thing I did wrong however which I haven't done until today is .... not listening to the mix for two days and coming back before I showed anyone. Because I m now realizing I should have met the middle ground between first and current mix.

As for tracking and engineering, I have my faith in that anyway. Its hard to hear on the tracks, maybe, but the proper micing was taken care of. The mics were lovely. That type of stuff comes with taste. Butch Vig, Steve Albini, Alan Parsons and Glyn Johns all use the same principles for micing drums yet I've read many a thread where people fight over who recorded better drums or who recorded atrocious drums. That's because they each have a different mentality behind it. See "In Bloom" drum sound vs "Milk It" drum sound by Nirvana (even though mix engineers also had a hand in it).

Side note: let me address the "ripped off" comment, I didn't make up "10 months" to sound ridiculous. I may be wrong, (please correct me) but no other album has been worked on for that long in just its mixing stage alone. I can't fault people for thinking that as you guys probably get badly engineered stuff all the time with them saying "mix it" and running away to blame you as quickly as possible. The 10 months were, in my opinion because not all mixers (even yourselves) are adept at mixing EVERYTHING.
Unless you truly think a guy who primarily handles
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtVyEZymUFo
could do this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj9CM1_rREE

Fundamentals are fundamentals. Experience is experience.

2. I was pushed aside for other more "promising" bands like Godsmack whom in my local area do that to EVERY studio in the area.

Kind of an empty resume item when every producer can claim the same thing yet nobody's name is on any of their records. Here's to hoping all mixers involved at least got paid instead of "exposure"
 
Now I shall address what I have taken so far and what I need to sort of say "yeah, that's right"

Miroslav (post 2) - There were a lot things in that GS thread so its kind of a general comment. Some people said it was too much eq build up (leading to fatigued listening), too much instruments (my bad), too much delays (my mixes have little to no reverb/ delays except on backing vocals), I could work of getting my vocal level correct though. I addressed what they had to work with (I'm adding dry and wet chains). Yes a song deserves more clarity and punch before "sonic soundscapes". Definitely writing this down : You should strip out all the excess ear candy and get the foundation right, then bring the other elements in one at a time and don't let them disrupt that foundation.

Rami - agreed with miroslav. I addressed the rest

Gecko zzed - I tend to believe that is what I really wanted ...an original style/watermark that was my own. I feel my influences are very subscribed to this form of thinking. I think my favorite thing about your post is I got an "everything is going to be okay, just keep going" vibe. Aren't we all looking for that when showing our first time mixes :p

Schwarzenyaeger - definitely a bit overboard in my arranging

mjbphotos - I could work on my automation

MusicalSound - I was really going for that :) I based my micing techniques off The Jesus Lizard's Goat album which sounds very "real" and authentic to me.

MusicalSound - Louis C.K. the biggest name in comedy (at least alt comedy) said something that relates in regards to his show: To defend absurdity in production is to exercise your artistry and its merits against the norms. I'm paraphrasing.

BroKen_H - definitely going for that with Lehigh Acres. A comparable bass idea someone told me was James Blake's "Limit to your Love"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOT2-OTebx0 (1st minute). Sheer boredom I don't know but thanks for sticking it out :) also thanks for listening to the album sampler that was really rushed as my collaborator said we needed that trailer the night of. Very anxious young fellow like myself.

Miroslav - (3rd post) I'm not sure what that comment is adding but I'm assuming it's just a general insult. Bad mixing? Generic music? MusicalSound's unfamiliarity with your taste or having any knowledge of the most popular forms of releasing music..... I don't know. In my mind, he approached his post with an open mind and had an opinion.

Note: vocals aren't always needing to be the most upfront: see The Jesus Lizard's Then Comes Dudley https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g0MgbQHh-Xg or the fact that these two videos exists for bigger artists at the time
Fall Out Boy (more phrasing imo though)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=75ChxlK430M
Nirvana (multiple references - marble mouth)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FklUAoZ6KxY

TripleM - hard to address the two songs comment, not sure though. Sloppiness I can see and I just address that mixing choice.


Taking note guys lol please don't mistake this post as me sticking my fingers in my ears screaming "LALALALA" over and over
 
AntiqueRoman said:
Miroslav - (3rd post) I'm not sure what that comment is adding but I'm assuming it's just a general insult. Bad mixing? Generic music? MusicalSound's unfamiliarity with your taste or having any knowledge of the most popular forms of releasing music..... I don't know. In my mind, he approached his post with an open mind and had an opinion.
Click to expand...

He said it was nice to hear something absurd..."once in awhile".
To which I replied he must not hit those sites too often.
IOW....I was just saying that those sites are full of "absurd"...meaning it's hard NOT to hear it...so I assumed he must not visit them often.
I guess the joke was lost without the obvious :) at the end. ;)

AFA the other stuff...
Look...the mixes are messy.
That doesn't mean that you suck, or your music sucks or any of that. It just means the mixes are messy.

I also get the feeling that the productions were a bit too ambitious, and due to lack of tracking/mixing skills, that only added to the messy vibe.
That said....it's not impossible to salvage things, but you may have to go back a bit in the process and IMO, you should simplify things in the production if they pose any difficulty for attaining your mix goals.
It's all further back in the production, and not just the mix phase...but I'm not sure you are looking to do that....so I got nothing more that I think would help here. There is no simple "EQ this way" and "process that way" answers here that will quickly solve the problems, and the GS comments I was really thinking about was where someone said that you are probably young and just need a bit more time at it before it starts to click for you.


Good luck. :thumbs up:
 
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I like complex mixes, and poison the water has a lot of cool stuff going on, but these do need some cleaning. Everything is pretty washy; the snare is way too far right.
 
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