Mix checking methology?

mjbphotos

mjbphotos

Moderator
Previous method - mix, tweak, render to stereo WAV, boost volume linearly, post to soundcloud for others to check/burn CD to check on other systems. This worked ok, except some files on soundcloud got SC-compressed in places where the files's volume made quick jumps up in volume.

Lately, I've tried rendering to stereo WAV, then putting the Kjerhus (spelling?) master limiter on the file to get the volume up to good level for checking in other places. I don't over compress, but it does get the lower volume stuff up without making a complete 'sausage' out of the wave file. I was finding I had to tweak a lot of cymbal/hi hat hits down in volume when doing this, and I realized that I didn't have to render first I could just put the limiter on the master track to save some steps.
Am I screwing up my mix by tweaking to what I hear with the master limiter on it?
 
Yes because that kjaerhaus master limiter can be pretty brutal. I used to use it, and got away from it as soon as I realized what was happening.


But I don't think there's anything wrong with checking your mix through a limiter on the master bus. I personally don't mix with it on, but I'll occasionally run my mixes through one limiter just to see how it holds up as the mix progresses.
 
I agree with Greg_L on not mixing into a "mastering" plug-in. I'm not farmiliar with that specific plug-in but if it is like most brickwall limiters things can get messy quickly.

I've been using the fabfilter pro-l to get volume up on my mixes and it is very transparent. It supports various metering including k-system and has really intuitive display for what the plug-in is doing to the signal. Not exactly cheap but IMO it has been worth the price.
 
mjbphotos said:
I was finding I had to tweak a lot of cymbal/hi hat hits down in volume when doing this, and I realized that I didn't have to render first I could just put the limiter on the master track to save some steps. Am I screwing up my mix by tweaking to what I hear with the master limiter on it?
Click to expand...


I've heard of lots of people mixing with stuff on the 2bus right from the start, compressors especially, and EQ. Fewer people use a limiter there when mixing, but some do, because of the problem you mentioned. But I've heard people say like Greg that they put a limiter on it from time to time to see what it's going to sound like finally, when it goes to a mastering engineer.
 
I do pretty much this same thing. For most of a mix, I don't use anything on the master bus. But at some point when it starts to get close to being finished, I'll go ahead and slap a limiter on the master bus just to see how it holds up when compressed. Since I know that the mix will eventually be compressed anyways, might as well see how everything sounds. Then disable the master bus FX, I render to WAV, open that mixdown in a new project and apply the homebrew "mastering" stuff to it and render that to MP3. I like this approach because it leaves me with a mixdown WAV with plenty of headroom if I ever wanted to get something professionally mastered. But I also end up with a squished mp3 that's loud enough for others to listen to.

No idea if this is proper, but that's just how I've been doing things. Although it's a pain in the ass when I need to tweak a mix and have to render twice just to get a new MP3 to check.
 
i always mix into a 2-buss (master buss) compressor.

that's just my way, i have it dialed in.

but applying any compression or limiting to a 'final stereo bounce' or mix, is GOING to change your mix to some degree.

unless you are a pro.
that's why they get paid good, they can take your best mix efforts, and get it as smooth and loud as possible WITHOUT changing your mix.

if they can't do that, use someone else.


if you insist on doing it yourself,
it is not a bad idea to have a compressor and limiter on your master buss, just to CHECK your mixes from time to time,
because you may find you want to edit your mixes to make up for any shortcomings in your own home mastering.

never bounce the final tracks with those plugins on, but turn them on and off during mixing to see what effect the later MASTERING will have on your MIX>
 
I use an analog 2-bus comp (Overstayer Stereo VCA) when I come back out of the DAW with 24 channels, and then mix down through the console. The Overstayer is on the console's stereo output that is feeding my 2-track tape deck.
I'm actually monitoring off the PB head on the tape deck.

From the tape deck it goes back into the DAW as a stereo file. I then do final mastering touch-ups, and that will include the final master limiter/maximizer, like the Waves L2 or one of the other new plug options I now have from Brainworx.

The mix at the 2-track is basically the finished mix. AFA how it will sound after I gain it up in the mastering stage, I adjust as needed then....and I don't go back to the mixing stage to fix things, unless something is really out.
IOW, I'm not trying to mix for a maxed out mix...but I find that if I get it right at the mix stage...it works fine when I raise it up in mastering, as long as I'm not trying to go to some extreme levels, which I don't.
 
Mixing into compressors on the 2buss is not the same as what mjbphotos was asking.

I routinely have compressors on the 2buss. Very little compression more as glue.
 
Good discussion and points to consider.

As I mentioned on a post in the Mastering section, I tried using hte Density MKII plug-in limiter, but couldn't figure out how to get it to limit! Any tips on settings for it? The Kjaerhus was pretty simple, one knob, and you can see what compression its doing by the leds.
 
Simman said:
Mixing into compressors on the 2buss is not the same as what mjbphotos was asking.

I routinely have compressors on the 2buss. Very little compression more as glue.
Click to expand...

Well yeah....he's asking about mixing into a mastering stage limiter.
I was just saying that I mix into a comp...and I master into a limiter. :)
IOW....the mix decisions are not made by what will happen at the mastering stage when a limiter is used to up the volume...and I don't think they it should be. I would think if the mix is working, upping the volume at mastering should do mostly just that, rather than completely change the mix balance....but of course, if you slam it enough it will change the mix balance.

I mean....most commercial stuff is first mixed, then mastered. Maybe there's times where it goes back to the mixer to adjust because of issues at mastering, but I think that's not too often.
So the job of the mastering is mainly enhance and up the level, and not so much to really alter the mix...but I'm sure it happens a lot when the mastering is done too extreme and it will alter the mix balance.
That said....it may work for someone to mix by what is happening with a mastering stage limiter bewith the levels wayt up. :)
 
miroslav said:
Well yeah....he's asking about mixing into a mastering stage limiter.
I was just saying that I mix into a comp...and I master into a limiter. :)
IOW....the mix decisions are not made by what will happen at the mastering stage when a limiter is used to up the volume...and I don't think they it should be. I would think if the mix is working, upping the volume at mastering should do mostly just that, rather than completely change the mix balance....but of course, if you slam it enough it will change the mix balance.

I mean....most commercial stuff is first mixed, then mastered. Maybe there's times where it goes back to the mixer to adjust because of issues at mastering, but I think that's not too often.
So the job of the mastering is mainly enhance and up the level, and not so much to really alter the mix...but I'm sure it happens a lot when the mastering is done too extreme and it will alter the mix balance.
That said....it may work for someone to mix by what is happening with a mastering stage limiter bewith the levels wayt up. :)
Click to expand...

Keep in mind that I'm just some dude in a basement. I'm sure that more experienced/skilled enginners can get it right without the limiter. I think that you're right, that if a mix is done correctly, it shouldn't change much if at all once hit with a limiter. As I get more practice in, I'm finding that I have to make fewer adjustments. But I'm not there yet. I still screw things up pretty badly as I fumble around to get a mix sounding solid.

My recent mix was quite a bit easier. I put hi-pass filters on almost every track, so I think that made a big difference in how the mix agrees with compression/limiting. It still took me 4 or 5 tries to get it settled though. Practice, practice...
 
the only two software limiters I've liked so far are 1/ voxengo elephant and 2/ Fabfilter proL I own the voxengo because I like the price and didn't need the entire fabfilter bundle, out of interest have you tried setting the output to -1dBFS? because it will sound a lot better on soundcloud that way, and especially when converted to mp3.
 
miroslav said:
Well yeah....he's asking about mixing into a mastering stage limiter.
I was just saying that I mix into a comp...and I master into a limiter. :)
Click to expand...

I was merely pointing out that the OP was mixing directly into the mastering plug which is dicey at best. I'm with you on having compressors on the 2buss. Mixing down and then moving into the "mastering" (I use the term losely) phase.
 
Btyre2013 said:
the only two software limiters I've liked so far are 1/ voxengo elephant and 2/ Fabfilter proL I own the voxengo because I like the price and didn't need the entire fabfilter bundle, out of interest have you tried setting the output to -1dBFS? because it will sound a lot better on soundcloud that way, and especially when converted to mp3.
Click to expand...

I guess I got lucky I was able to just get the Pro-l without buying the bundle. I will say that it is a good plug-in.
 
Tadpui said:
As I get more practice in, I'm finding that I have to make fewer adjustments.


My recent mix was quite a bit easier.


Practice, practice...
Click to expand...

There you go! :thumbs up:

I think when starting out it's good to explore things and learn what happens to Z when you mess with X & Y...and like you're finding out, you just get better at it with practice and time, so that after awhile you can predict better.
I'm still learning about a variety of options, mainly 'cuz I like to try new production approaches with new songs...but I do have some go-to processes down cold, so for some music styles, I'm generlaly on auto-pilot these days.


Simman said:
I was merely pointing out that the OP was mixing directly into the mastering plug which is dicey at best. I'm with you on having compressors on the 2buss. Mixing down and then moving into the "mastering" (I use the term losely) phase.
Click to expand...

We are in agreeement. :)
 
miroslav said:
We are in agreeement. :)
Click to expand...

Yep...

Hey don't mean to high jack the thread but when you mixdown are you printing to tape or just running the signal through the record head circuitry in the machine and back out to the DAW? Just interested.
 
I print to tape... but I don't really archive/keep those stereo tape tracks.
IOW....I mix out to the 2-track and set it to monitor/output off the PB head, and that goes to the DAW in real time, not as a later playback...so it is getting the recorded tape signal, not just the deck's electronics.

I have a bunch of mixes lined up right now....but I'm still not in a mixing mood, so I'm pushing through and working on more new songs....but in the near future (probably by the spring) I will have a bunch of new mixes, using some new methodology and more DAW-side processing than in the past...but I'm also sticking with the console/outboard/2-track for mixdowns.
When done I will post them up. I have to also update my whole website as I have shit on there that's well over 5 years old, and I've changed up a lot of stuff since, and at least I think I've also improved my production quality based on some preliminary mixes I've done with my new material.
Basically...I had my head stuck in old-school analog for years, and it was all good, but the sound wasn't fitting the more modern flavors. I think finally now I've struck that good balance between analog and digital, and old-school mentality with modern flavors.

Always learning..... :)
 
miroslav said:
I print to tape... but I don't really archive/keep those stereo tape tracks.
IOW....I mix out to the 2-track and set it to monitor/output off the PB head, and that goes to the DAW in real time, not as a later playback...so it is getting the recorded tape signal, not just the deck's electronics.

I have a bunch of mixes lined up right now....but I'm still not in a mixing mood, so I'm pushing through and working on more new songs....but in the near future (probably by the spring) I will have a bunch of new mixes, using some new methodology and more DAW-side processing than in the past...but I'm also sticking with the console/outboard/2-track for mixdowns.
When done I will post them up. I have to also update my whole website as I have shit on there that's well over 5 years old, and I've changed up a lot of stuff since, and at least I think I've also improved my production quality based on some preliminary mixes I've done with my new material.
Basically...I had my head stuck in old-school analog for years, and it was all good, but the sound wasn't fitting the more modern flavors. I think finally now I've struck that good balance between analog and digital, and old-school mentality with modern flavors.

Always learning..... :)
Click to expand...

Dude, that's awesome. I'm an old analog guy from back in the day. In my studio I still use a 32channel ghost (into and HD24) and a rack full of analog gear. Wish I had an unlimited budget because I'd be recording into an A800 with have a crap load of old Urei 1176s. At home my rig is all ITB - but I am using a digi design pro control (can't get away from turning knobs or moving faders :)). Not a lot of people using a razor blade to edit anymore (not sure I actually miss that) and there's nothing like the smell of baking old tapes in the oven.
 
So like yeah....I also still track to tape. I have a really sweet Otari 2". Then I dump the tape tracks to the DAW for edits/processing...then mix out of the DAW through the console, etc, etc.

What area of the Jersey shore are you in?
I use to live in a few places in NJ from the early '60s through the early '80s. Last place was down in central Jersey, Jamesburg (between East Brunswick/Englishtown/Hightstown).
Use to hit the Asbury clubs in my misguided youth. I had some good times in NJ during my band years...the clubs were fun back then, and lots of good bands to go see.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top