Ride/Hi Hat Crosstalk between Overheads

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RoyceWhittaker

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I'm currently mixing a record with a very Deftones-y band. Everything sounds great, the overheads are aligned with the kit properly and everything is in phase. However, I'm noticing a lot of cross-bleed with the hi hats and overheads between both overhead mics (ie. the ride cymbal on the right is bleeding into the left, so it audibly appears to come from both mics). If any of you have run into this before, do you have any tips on how to rectify this issue?

Thanks!

Royce
 
What mics are you using for overheads and how do you have them set up?
 
The mics were a spaced pair of TLM 103's, spaced equally with the snare and kick both coming straight down the middle and the cymbals sounding wide as they should. I also have spots on the ride and hi hat which I'm not currently using in the mix. I've also cut up all of the tom mics instead of gating them, so the only cymbal sound is coming straight from the overheads.
 
Not sure how high you have them, but try lowering the OH mics.....the higher up they are, the less L/R definition.

I use M/S pair of OH mics, and at most they are only about 4' up over the top of the snare, and the ride/HH come up in the image where they should, but of course, with any OH pair, it's not going to be razor-defined.
You may also have reflections off of side walls/ceiling that are diffusing the whole image a bit too.
 
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You're not going to have total isolation. Drums don't work that way. Overheads don't work that way.
 
I think it is to be expected that the hi-hat will bleed into the OH's. Probably why so many do not even mic up the HH
 
the neumann TLM103 mics have a nicer than average sounding off axis colouration, if you want more separation then maybe try them closer to the kit so it's a bit more specific a limited. The TLM103 do pick up a lot of off axis sounds I've noticed, maybe a hypercardiod mic would've been a better choice
 
You will not get isolation between the overheads. Use the spot mics, panned wide, to give the hat and ride a little more direction. You don't have to make them loud, just add the spot mics in until you notice the hat move a little to one side and the ride a little to the other.

The overheads are there to capture the whole kit, not just the cymbals. If you are using them as just cymbal mics, you might have them too loud. If you turn them down in the mix, they will seem a little more directional.
 
Greg_L said:
You're not going to have total isolation. Drums don't work that way. Overheads don't work that way.
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Farview said:
You will not get isolation between the overheads. Use the spot mics, panned wide, to give the hat and ride a little more direction. You don't have to make them loud, just add the spot mics in until you notice the hat move a little to one side and the ride a little to the other.

The overheads are there to capture the whole kit, not just the cymbals. If you are using them as just cymbal mics, you might have them too loud. If you turn them down in the mix, they will seem a little more directional.
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There's wisdom in both of these posts. Maybe try panning those overheads in a little bit instead of expecting them to be so wide. This will put less emphasis on the time delay between mics, it'll move the timekeeping instruments (hat and ride) more toward the center of the spectrum, and it will provide contrast to make those brutal guitars sound even bigger and wider.
 
A lot of good responses but they'd be even better after hearing a sample of the problem.

But that's going to happen with spaced overheads, stuff will get into both mics and much of it will be out of phase in a way you can hear, as in "audibly appears to come from both mics". Whether that's bad or not is up to you.
 
Drums are the king of the spill, all the mics pick up some of all the kit. You have to make it the drum sound. I once had a drummer tell me that the overheads were only supposed to pick up cymbals and I was doing it wrong because he could hear drums in the overheads :facepalm:

How I pan the overheads depends on the position of the overheads relative to the position of the drum mics. For example if the floor tom is out to the side further than the overhead on that side of the kit then the overhead should not be panned wider then the tom mic. Same with the hi hat mic and the overhead that side on the kit. You also should pan realistically so that you get some spread but also a good solid drum sound. You may in fact find that if the overhead hi hat side is picking up a lot of hat you may not need the hat mic at all.

Alan.
 
witzendoz said:
Drums are the king of the spill, all the mics pick up some of all the kit. You have to make it the drum sound. I once had a drummer tell me that the overheads were only supposed to pick up cymbals and I was doing it wrong because he could hear drums in the overheads :facepalm:
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This is classic "I have no idea what I'm talking about" rubbish (not you, the guy you're talking about). Overheads are supposed to pick up the kit as a whole, IMO. Sometimes I don't even put them overhead and will instead put them in front of the kit.

And as far as spillage goes, you're always going to get some of the hi hat in the opposite mic. I've found, however, that in larger rooms this effect is lessened. It tends to happen more in smaller rooms where the sound doesn't get a chance to bloom and dissipate as opposed to a small room, where there will be many reflections (pending treatment, of course) back into adjacent mics.

I would try compress the kit as a whole with a good drum compressor (DBX 160, 1176, etc) and pull the overheads down until they sound well balanced. They will increase in volume with the amount of compression you need to get that pumping sound. You want the snare and kick to trigger the compressor and pull the overheads down until they're just riding under the threshold (give or take). However personally I don't mind if the hi hat is in both sides because it adds to the sloshiness, particularly in a deftones-type recording. Have you listened to any deftones lately? I'm listening to Change right now and the hi hat almost sounds centered. It's only slightly off to the right and for the most part comes through in both left and right channels. To me it makes it sound cohesive. Again, personally, I don't like when there is too much left and right separation between drum elements. It's distracting. The drums don't sound like a single instrument that way.

He's on the ride now and it too is only slightly off to the left but almost center as well. The only things that are perceived as more hard panned are the heavy cymbal crashes. They jump out of left and right quite prominently in places. You'll have to ask Terry Date how he did that!

Justs my 2c.

Cheers :)
 
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