Virtual guitar amps/analog guitar amps

[saads]

The thing is that sims ... or in my case hardware sims or modelers ... they don't respond to dynamics nearly as well as an amp.

Even something like a Fractal or a Kemper, one of the things I read about over and over by those that use them is that you need a different patch for each volume level you want.

Ah I see, that's a good answer. So I guess it isn't entirely about feel.

but I don't find playing against a sim as rewarding and interesting "organically" as I get from an amp.

I can relate to that. I guess what you call organic/rewarding probably seems cumbersome/too much work to others.

Its all a factor because real amps feel, look, AND sound better than sims.

That probably summarizes all 44 pages. As a drummer I know there isn't anything out there in the electronic drum world that's even close to replacing real drums, I guess things aren't all that different in the guitar world.

 

[Greg_L]

That probably summarizes all 44 pages. As a drummer I know there isn't anything out there in the electronic drum world that's even close to replacing real drums, I guess things aren't all that different in the guitar world.

I'm a drummer as well, and that's it exactly. Think of E-drums. They're essentially practice pads with triggers built in. None of the sound is organic, all of it is simulated. It's a digital approximation of a real sound. Even if the drum samples are actual one-hit-at-a-time real drums recorded for use as samples, it's still not the sound you're making. It's not the sound of that drum being hit by that drummer at that time. It's a pre-determined facsimile. And don't even get me started on how stupid e-drums look. Pearl does have a an actual acoustic kit that uses e-heads and cymbals though. It looks like, hell it is, a real kit.

 

[Lt. Bob]

That probably summarizes all 44 pages. As a drummer I know there isn't anything out there in the electronic drum world that's even close to replacing real drums, I guess things aren't all that different in the guitar world.

and a drummer will lead them!

That's an excellent analogy.

Also that volume thing and needing different patches? That IS a part of 'feel' ..... how your amp responds to how hard you pick dynamically if the biggest part of 'feel' in an amp sorta like how tiny changes in how hard you hit the drums make differences in how loud they are and, I presume, the tonality.

 

[saads]

Pearl does have a an actual acoustic kit that uses e-heads and cymbals though. It looks like, hell it is, a real kit.

Are you talking about the ePro Live? I tried it once, not too impressed. The practicality of an electronic kit and the thrill of an acoustic in one package seems like a good idea, but why not buy both separately? I dunno, to each his own.

and a drummer will lead them!

That's an excellent analogy.

Also that volume thing and needing different patches? That IS a part of 'feel' ..... how your amp responds to how hard you pick dynamically if the biggest part of 'feel' in an amp sorta like how tiny changes in how hard you hit the drums make differences in how loud they are and, I presume, the tonality.

Very true, hadn't thought about it that way. I have had the opportunity to mess around with the Axe Fx for a little bit, but I was more focused on the sound than the responsiveness/dynamics. If I get another chance I'll try to be more aware. Oh well, that's what happens when you let a drummer play guitar

 

[Greg_L]

Are you talking about the ePro Live? I tried it once, not too impressed. The practicality of an electronic kit and the thrill of an acoustic in one package seems like a good idea, but why not buy both separately? I dunno, to each his own.

I haven't tried it, and don't want to, but it certainly looks better than regular plastic plate e-drums.

 

[scorpio01169]

Sorry to keep this thread alive but, I read this whole thread and felt I needed to say something about real vs sims. What I'm about to talk about is in a recording studio situation. I started out recording about 12 years ago, been playing bass for 30+ years and drums for longer. A friend and I argued and argued about getting sims to sound just as good as an amp and neither one of us ever did a side by side comparison. He played his amp sim and I was like wow and was sold on amp sims. Then a thread just like this one came up in another forum and I thought to myself maybe I was wrong and my first response was right about real being better. We did a side by side and he and I both agreed real is better. Sim guys, you can try as hard as you want to convince yourself that there is no difference, but there is. Here's why you wont be able to tell the difference and it's has nothing to do with the actual sound of the real amp or the sim, It's about being too lazy to actually set up your amp and getting the tone you want. It's also about getting the right mic placement then you telling the engineer the sound you're looking for. I was guilty of being lazy and getting the best sound I could out of a sim and convincing myself it was good enough. Well when I started mic'ing amps again and stopped being lazy I was getting sounds no amp sim could ever reproduce. Just because it's easier, quicker, and can sound somewhat real.....it aint better than real.

 

[volltreffer]

Sorry, but I don't give too much on whether it is like real, worse or even better... When using sims, you have LOADS of possibilities of chossing a sound that is approximatly the sound you want/need. I don't have that many different amps to have these sounds. I don't have the time to constanly run to my speakers and adjust the mic. I don't have the place to record a Marshall full stack at appropriate volume (not even my small Fender). I love my real amps, and decide to gig with them, simply, as it is a situation closer to the rehearsal room. But when recording, I prefer/have to use my AxeFx, my sans amp, Tonelab or even my (loads say crappy, though they can Sound quite decent) Roland VS internal amp sims. When doing former recordings, I most often recorded my guitar co-player via mic on one track and afterwards via sims on another. He needed the 'moving air' to get his feeling for the track...

aXel

 

[RyderUK]

I still think that live sound revolves around how much air is being moved. That is ow we get a great big live sound. Recording is a completely different and, for my money... digital on recording gives the producer the most scope... while big and air moving makes for a big, big sound

 

[miroslav]

Recording is a completely different and, for my money... digital on recording gives the producer the most scope...

That's making the assumption that all good production requires a million options and decisions to be made at the mix stage.

Digital certainly has more tools in the box, and they can be handy....but they are not all needed, all the time, and if a producer can't see his way through a production without having to use all those tools and endless options to consider unitl the very end, then maybe it's the producer who is having the problem.

Many good productions are realized before and during the tracking stage...everything after that is just putting it all together and making small adjustments.

 

[Greg_L]

I'm willing to bet that most of you that harp on about a sim's limitless versatility only use a small handful of sounds for everything. And the tiny variety you may use could easily be accomplished with a real amp....and sound better. They're so versatile! So many options! Limitless possibilities! Meanwhile you use the same exact sounds song after song.

 

[miroslav]

That was my question/comment awhile ago too....like how many sims users really need 85 different amp sounds?
I too bet that most of them find 2-3 presets and then just twiddle with them....kinda the same as having a couple of real amps and dialing in a bunch of tones.

Most players find 2-3 genres that they primarily focus on, and usually use 2-3 basic amp tones, with a variety of nuances to cover all the different recording/performing needs.....something that can be done often with one amp if it has two channels and a good amount of versatility, or a couple of more defined amps.
Most of the differences are about turning the knobs, and maybe a pedal tossed in here and there.

Just don't see the big sell about sims having 85 amp flavors and how you can't get that with 1-2 real amps. *shrug*

 

[Greg_L]

That was my question/comment awhile ago too....like how many sims users really need 85 different amp sounds?
I too bet that most of them find 2-3 presets and then just twiddle with them....kinda the same as having a couple of real amps and dialing in a bunch of tones.

Most players find 2-3 genres that they primarily focus on, and usually use 2-3 basic amp tones, with a variety of nuances to cover all the different recording/performing needs.....something that can be done often with one amp if it has two channels and a good amount of versatility, or a couple of more defined amps.
Most of the differences are about turning the knobs, and maybe a pedal tossed in here and there.

Just don't see the big sell about sims having 85 amp flavors and how you can't get that with 1-2 real amps. *shrug*

Yes, exactly. I'm not knocking on using sims for recording, but let's keep it real. No one's actually using the millions of variables in a big sim program, so touting versatility as a "pro" is silly to me. Maybe a real studio that uses something like Guitar Rig commercially would go through many options from client to client. But I'd also assume a real studio that has many clients would record real amps. The average home recorder is essentially using the same basic sounds over and over within his/her own style.

 

[volltreffer]

Well, personally, I use some different things that I'm sure, won't be so easy to have with real amps (well it may be with pedals, but that is sim, too). The class A distortion of my Tech21 double drive 3X blended with a tad of A/B is a very unique glassy Sound, that I like a lot on some Psychobilly recordings. Could probably be done with a Vox? I dunno. If I want a more 'rotten' Sound, I use my Tonelab on a fenderish Setting with some highs. It gives some weird high freq distortion (I assume that this is de facto a mistake in the SW but I like it for some sounds...) Sounds a lot like early Cramps. When I'm more into the classical Rockabilly sounds, I often use my AxeFx Ultra. Some Fender-Like sounds will most often do. OK, there IS a difference in dynamics, BUT as Long as I compress my tracks afterwards, this should not be too much of a loss... For the punkish stuff, I often use some Marshall sim in parallel (double tracking, not identical track) with some modern American Mesaish Thing. Would be a lot to buy. (And don't Forget that it gets COMPLETELY absurd if you think of doink things like Link Wray and treating your Speaker cones with laquer and srewdrivers to get a different distortion )But I'm with you in that the number of amp models being the most important cause for a sim, is absurd. The old VS Thing with its 10 or so models and same number of Speaker sims was sufficient, but I didn't like the majority of them

Like I stated, for me, it is more the ease of use and the possibilities of recording at night that count for me. Oh yes and: I can store quite a number of different sounds (OK, if was able to write, or take photos, it might work, too )

But: probably noone will ever notice what I think of my guitar sounds, as I play too lousy and mix and record too bad

 

[Greg_L]

Man, rockabilly/psychobilly with sims. For shame.

 

[miroslav]

The average home recorder is essentially using the same basic sounds over and over within his/her own style.

I think that's safe to say for the majority of home-rec players. Of all the songs I've heard here on HR....there have been very few people who really jump from one extreme style to another. Most of it is within a tight flavor, or at most 2-3 main flavors.

This happens with a lot of audio gear things. You have some amp/box/app that can do "a million things"...and there end up being maybe 2-3 go-to choices that get raves or get used by any one person regularly. Everything else is just "sales filler".
People thnen get all excited about having 85 virtual amps-in-a-box....something they might never actually own for real...but honestly, do they even NEED 85 amps, real or virtual...?
Nope.

 

[miroslav]

...(well it may be with pedals, but that is sim, too)...

Not really.
Most pedals are electronic circuits that do something, for real, just like real amps.
Sims (simulations) - are just mathematical attempts at simulating that which electronic circuits do for real.

 

[Greg_L]

Well, personally, I use some different things that I'm sure, won't be so easy to have with real amps (well it may be with pedals, but that is sim, too). The class A distortion of my Tech21 double drive 3X blended with a tad of A/B is a very unique glassy Sound, that I like a lot on some Psychobilly recordings. Could probably be done with a Vox? I dunno. If I want a more 'rotten' Sound, I use my Tonelab on a fenderish Setting with some highs. It gives some weird high freq distortion (I assume that this is de facto a mistake in the SW but I like it for some sounds...) Sounds a lot like early Cramps. When I'm more into the classical Rockabilly sounds, I often use my AxeFx Ultra. Some Fender-Like sounds will most often do. OK, there IS a difference in dynamics, BUT as Long as I compress my tracks afterwards, this should not be too much of a loss... For the punkish stuff, I often use some Marshall sim in parallel (double tracking, not identical track) with some modern American Mesaish Thing. Would be a lot to buy. (And don't Forget that it gets COMPLETELY absurd if you think of doink things like Link Wray and treating your Speaker cones with laquer and srewdrivers to get a different distortion )But I'm with you in that the number of amp models being the most important cause for a sim, is absurd. The old VS Thing with its 10 or so models and same number of Speaker sims was sufficient, but I didn't like the majority of them

Like I stated, for me, it is more the ease of use and the possibilities of recording at night that count for me. Oh yes and: I can store quite a number of different sounds (OK, if was able to write, or take photos, it might work, too )

But: probably noone will ever notice what I think of my guitar sounds, as I play too lousy and mix and record too bad

While all of that is very nice, you could easily get those types of sounds with a Fender combo, a Marshall combo, an SM57, a cheap LDC, and a few pedals for less than the AxeFx alone costs. So in this instance, the lesser cost of sims isn't the factor. By all means do what you like however you wanna do it, and whatever works for you, etc, but you're not doing anything a real amp can't do better besides being able to do it quietly. If quietly recording at night is a sticking point, then you're on the right path.

So let's recap....

Looks - amps > sims
Feel - amps > sims
Sound - amps > sims
Cost - toss up depending on the amp and sim
Silently recording at 3 am in an apartment - sim > amp

The amps are winning!

 

[volltreffer]

OK that makes a different Story then... (in my understanding, something like Tech21 and similar stuff are analog sims...) Which leaves as the most important point for ME the quiet recordings... And IMHO the most important Point for a lot of People is the 'bad feeling' when recording with a Simulator. A half-stack is cooler, somehow , which influence most Players a lot!

And I second you: with pedals and some amps you should be able to find a sound that matches the song.

 

[volltreffer]

The amps are winning!

...until you have to record at 3am in an Apartment

 

[Greg_L]

Not really.
Most pedals are electronic circuits that do something, for real, just like real amps.
Sims (simulations) - are just mathematical attempts at simulating that which electronic circuits do for real.

Right. Pedals are not sims. Most of them are not simulating anything. Some do for sure, but most typical stompbox pedals alter and transform the signal, they don't simulate.