The New Tone Thread

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On the big vs small thing, I usually use a 4x12 based half stack of some sort with the band I'm in, but a couple of weeks ago my back was hurting and so I decided to take my Blues Jr. to practice - 1x12 - this is one that I've heavily modified - new OT, higher voltage preamp, new speaker, etc. etc., almost all the BillM stuff. I think it sounds pretty good but...

once I got it in front a drummer, it was like I was wearing a pink tutu - it cast a pall over the whole practice. It was almost (but not quite) loud enough, but the sound was just so much smaller that it didn't work. The drummer and the rest of the band were stoked when I took some ibuprofen and brought back a big rig the next practice.
 
Yup, I had a similar situation I posted about earlier in this thread. I used my buddies 20w Krank lunchbox head and small 2x12 at a practice and it was just terrible.....unless you were standing directly in front of it. The head was fine, plenty powerful enough, but the cab was small and sounded small and it just beamed out in one direction. Bleh. I like being able to move around and still hear myself loud and clear. A halfstack can definitely be a hassle, but they DO sound better for rock and roll.
 
My 2x12 is an Avatar, and I think it's great. It's huge, for a typical 2x12. It's almost the same size as my 1960. I haven't put them side by side, but I think it's considerably bigger than your standard Mesa, Marshall, or Orange 2x12. Often you look into a 2x12 and the speakers go right to the edge of the framing. Not on this one. It could almost be a 4x10. Maybe if you staggered the speakers a little you could fit four 10s in it. It's big. And it has a convertible open/closed back. It sounds like a big cab. That's what I've got the Vintage 30s sitting in.

From what I've been reading and with my limited amp knowledge, it makes sense to me that your little DSL would be a good pairing with the Greenback. I'm gonna ramble here for a minute....For one, the amp's tiny wattage almost plays right into a Greenbacks sweet spot. But also, the DSL is a pretty "tight" amp. I'm gonna assume your little DSL has theoretically the same power section topology as the bigger ones. It's got a modern flavor and with Marshalls that usually means a lot of negative feedback in the power section. That kind of sound works well with a loose speaker like a Greenback. And it's also why those old 4-hole Super Leads worked awesome with Greenbacks. They too were tight amps with a lot of negative feedback and why you had to literally crank them to the moon to get them to break up. And like my JVM....it LOVES my Greenbacks. It too is naturally a very tight amp. On the flip side, the master volume 800s, and my JMP, are "loose" amps with supposedly the least amount of negative feedback in stock form from Marshall. The 70s MV JMPs and vertical input JCM 800s are Marshall's most balls-out amps. Not the highest gain, but the most perceived power and punch. They get wild and wooly right away, and they like a tighter speaker like the common G12-65s and G12T-75s.....which each came on the scene right as these MV amps were introduced. It's like the Marshall people realized, hey, these 2203s are murdering Greenbacks, we need something tougher. The JMP 2203/04 era cabs mostly came with G12-65s, the 800 cabs mostly came with the 65s and later the 75s. Generally speaking, of course. You could get Greenbacks too back then, but by the mid/late 70s they made 65s and later 75s the standard, common speakers for 1960 cabs. Those speakers were better suited for the looser 2203/2204s, and my own experience confirms this, to me anyway. My slutty loose JMP sounds better through the "tighter" G12-65s and G12T-75s than it does through my Greenbacks. But really, the G12T-75 is a good all-around speaker that will work with anything, but maybe not sound the best all the time. I have two laying around right now, and will soon have two more when I fix up this B cab. Gimme a little time and if you're interested I'll sell you one.
Good description on the speakers/amps dude, I'd never thought about that before, but it does make sense...Other than the power tubes, I'm assuming my DSL-1 is pretty much the same circuit that's in the big DSL's, I may be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that Marshall pretty much put the circuits into these 1w amps their big brothers have, but the power section (of course) is different......Would be cool to have a T-75, keep me in mind if/when that ever happens dude....

Lol. That's hilarious. Those guys are retards over there. I do hear a pretty significant difference in your 3 clips. The amp alone clip is obviously much different, but the one I thought was the real SD-1 has a more open, natural kind of sound to it to me. Turns out it was the sim version, and that's pretty cool. Your real SD-1 clip sounds thinner and more compressed to me......like a sim. Maybe you should un-mod it. ;)
Yeah, the guy was like " turn this up, turn this down on your amp, set the delay to "X" pre-delay, & "Y" milliseconds, have it hitting the reverb with "Z" db level...remember to have your mic at "ZZ" inches away from the grill on a "YY" degree angle, & you have to use the $1,000,0000 mic or it won't even be close..." & all this crazy shit. I bet he felt pretty fuckin' stupid when I told him it was an ampsim...:D

I'm eventually gonna re-solder my pedal back to original dude, I even bought a new soldering iron/solder/kit a while back, I'm just a lazy fucker while I'm at home....I do bust ass at work (literally dude, I've got a physically demanding job to say the least), so I take it pretty fuckin' easy while I'm at home...ask the wife...:laughings:

I will. I got some ready. I can only attribute the earth shaking to the looser power section in the JMP. It gets power tubey really fast. It's not by any means a bedroom amp. Lol. For being *only* 50 watts, it sounds friggin gigantic. The JVM is loud as fuck too, but it's a more sophisticated loud. They're totally night and day, like race cars. The JVM is an Indy Car, the JMP is a Top-Fuel Dragster.

You know, that's the coolest description I've ever heard comparing 2 amps dude, but it makes sense to me....Maybe when you're trying to hammer something into my head, you can come up with one of these to descriptions to make sure my dumb ass "gets it".....:)

Post the clips dude, I'm dying to hear a "real" Marshall over here...


antichef: That's funny man, a pink tutu...I remember those days when I played in bands, both of your are right, it just ain't the same without a 4x12...I went through a buch of little amps while playing in that band, Marshall micro-stack (the original 12 w, w 2x10 cabs...LOL), a couple Peavey solid-state combos (which both sucked ass....LOL), & a bunch of others...BUT, when my parents bought me the white full-stack, all that shit went away....Fuck me sideways I wish I'd kept that amp, but live-n-learn I suppose. I know where it's at, the guy I sold it to still has it btw, but won't even take it out of his house, let alone sell it...
 
Ok here's some clips I did fucking around yesterday. I fucked up though and moved the amp settings around so I don't recall what they were, but my best recollection is this...

Les Paul
1979 Marshall JMP 2204
Bass - 5
Mid - 6
Treb - 4
Presence - 2
Gain - maybe around 6.5-7
Master volume - 5
1960a 4x12 Greenbacks/G12-65s
Audix i5 on a G12-65, on the grill, straight on-axis, about halfway to edge.

Four clips, one raw amp, 3 with overdrive pedals
JMP raw
JMP + Boss SD-1
JMP + Tube Screamer TS-9
JMP + SD-1 + TS-9

Both pedals were set as "clean boosts" only. Max volume, no drive, tone at 12:00
 
Cool Greg,
Can't decide whether I like the SD-1 or TS clip the best...I do like the clip with both pedals together, sounds like my kind of gain there dude...:D They all sound good though Greg, I like the raw JMP sound too....

Dunno if you noticed it or not, but I can hear a hum in the audio, like the hiss from having high-gain, but this is a hum...Maybe it's always been there & I just noticed it tonight, I dunno....

Master at 5 huh??? I bet that was pretty fucking loud dude, do you still have your cab in another room, or were you sitting in front of it??? I hear the feedback, but with big amps like that, they can feedback even when you're quite a way from 'em if they're loud enough....

Sounds good though dude, post some more!!! I've been working on another old song of mine the last couple days, re-amping the guitar tracks, I might post a couple of 'em later, if I don't pass out on the couch again....:)
 
Cool Greg,
Can't decide whether I like the SD-1 or TS clip the best...I do like the clip with both pedals together, sounds like my kind of gain there dude...:D They all sound good though Greg, I like the raw JMP sound too....

Dunno if you noticed it or not, but I can hear a hum in the audio, like the hiss from having high-gain, but this is a hum...Maybe it's always been there & I just noticed it tonight, I dunno....

Master at 5 huh??? I bet that was pretty fucking loud dude, do you still have your cab in another room, or were you sitting in front of it??? I hear the feedback, but with big amps like that, they can feedback even when you're quite a way from 'em if they're loud enough....

Sounds good though dude, post some more!!! I've been working on another old song of mine the last couple days, re-amping the guitar tracks, I might post a couple of 'em later, if I don't pass out on the couch again....:)

Thanks man. I'm not really noticing any "hum". The amp isn't dead quiet by any means, but I'm not hearing hum. I might just be used to it. Lol. 2203/2204s are pretty notorious for being a little noisy. A little RF interference kind of comes with the territory on these amps. The JVM is noisy as hell at it's higher gain settings, but I never use that much gain so it's not a problem for me. Many JVM guys run an ISP Decimator gate in the fx loop. At my typical Greg levels of hyper-crunch, noise isn't really a problem.

I like the raw or SD-1 clip myself. The TS-9 isn't bad, but it's a little Mick Mars sounding to me. Lol. And the two combined is just way too much. I need to change my strings bad on that guitar. I hate changing strings but I guess it's time. That first chord is a barred powerchord high up the neck and it sounds dull and muddy as hell.

The loudness, yeah, it was pretty loud. I have the cabs in the room with me right now. I wear ear protection. It's like, you can actually feel your pants shaking loud. One of those thin plastic grocery bags will literally dance around a little bit. On the JMP, it doesn't really get much louder once the master is up around 6-6.5. It just gets fatter and more saturated. 5 is a pretty good spot for recording because the power section is involved, and it sounds huge, but it's not full-on out of control yet. It's a little tighter overall. The master volume does dramatically change the sound though. At lower volumes, you have to dial in a completely different EQ. It's a little bit like a Super Lead in the sense that the preamp volume and master volume work together for the overall sound, as opposed to the JVM being almost all preamp gain and the master volume is simply just a master volume. The JVM's power section doesn't have anywhere near the effect on tone that the JMP's does.

Check this pic....see my hats hanging on the wall? When both cabs are roaring, those hats fall. Every time.
 
Raw is good Greg but the SD-1 is a cool step over the edge.
That little extra input does nice things to the front end.
The TS & combos were interesting but nothing spectacular.
I enjoyed your selection for jamming. I have the original Love Sculpture LP.
You do Edmunds well.
 
Raw is good Greg but the SD-1 is a cool step over the edge.
That little extra input does nice things to the front end.
The TS & combos were interesting but nothing spectacular.
I enjoyed your selection for jamming. I have the original Love Sculpture LP.
You do Edmunds well.

Thanks Ray, I agree. I like it raw or with the SD-1. The SD-1 tightens it up a little but let's it remain kind of natural sounding. The other two clips don't do much for me unless I want to do RATT covers. :D I don't hate them, they're just too much gain for my tastes.
 
I use a half stack live (wasp 200w box) with a 100w head (old 4 valve Laney Pro Tube 100). Used to practice with it, but it's generally a pain in the arse. So now I use a Blackstar stage 60 2x12 combo and it goes fine - I've even used it at a few gigs - plenty of volume without sounding like it's trying too hard, and an open back so in the practice situation it seems to chuck a bit off the wall behind.
BTW, thanks Greg - been thinking about buying an i5 so good to hear some examples...
 
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Did some test recording with my condensor mic today (Samson CO-1), but ran out of time to post the clips...I'll post 'em when I get home from work tonight....
 
OK, here's a quick-n-shitty clip of my DSL-1 > Greenback >Samson CO-1 condensor mic...I've had this mic for about 5 years now (I got it in a "package" deal when I bought a Zoom HD8 recorder, came with this mic, a stand, a mic cable & some other little shit I've forgotten about...that was my starting setup for home recording), & this is only the 2nd time I've ever tried it on an amp (I tried it way back when I had the Zoom HD8 & Line 6 Spider Valve...)...Seems the bottom end is a little better than the '57 to me, lemme know what you guys think...

I did add a little room 'verb to the track, trying to make it sound like it was recorded in a room, instead of a fuckin' box...:)


Ibanez > interface > re-amp box > SD-1 > DSL-1 > Greenback >CO-1

SD-1:
Level: 10
Tone: 5.5
Drive: 0

DSL-1:
Bass: 10
Mid: 5.5
Treble: 5.5
Gain: 4
Volume: 7
Deep: On
Tone Shift: Off


 
That sounds great to me. It definitely has an improved low end over your 57 clips. Maybe the reverb helps a little too.
 
Thanks Greg,
You know, I've had this mic laying around for about 5 years now, but have never really tried it on a cab...I'm sure with a little better placement, it could sound even better too...

I'm thinking the '57 I've got is a dud man. I have to put the pre-amp gain (on my interface) on about 5 or so to get the signal as hot as the clip above. With the Samson, I turned the gain all the way off, & it's still hitting around -6 or so in the daw...Maybe the '57 I got a year or so ago is a fuckin' dud, I dunno...The Samson does require phantom power, but damn, should there be that much of a volume difference between these two mics???

I know I've been saying this forever, but a couple more/different mics are what I'm gonna buy next....

Thanks again for the compliment & listen Greg...
 
Thanks Greg,
You know, I've had this mic laying around for about 5 years now, but have never really tried it on a cab...I'm sure with a little better placement, it could sound even better too...

I'm thinking the '57 I've got is a dud man. I have to put the pre-amp gain (on my interface) on about 5 or so to get the signal as hot as the clip above. With the Samson, I turned the gain all the way off, & it's still hitting around -6 or so in the daw...Maybe the '57 I got a year or so ago is a fuckin' dud, I dunno...The Samson does require phantom power, but damn, should there be that much of a volume difference between these two mics???

I know I've been saying this forever, but a couple more/different mics are what I'm gonna buy next....

Thanks again for the compliment & listen Greg...

Many dynamic mics are like that. And many condenser mics are a lot "hotter". More sensitive is the better description. I think what you described is pretty normal. There's probably nothing wrong with your 57.
 
Many dynamic mics are like that. And many condenser mics are a lot "hotter". More sensitive is the better description. I think what you described is pretty normal. There's probably nothing wrong with your 57.
agreed .... I see posts ALL the time here about 57s and 58s being duds 'cause they don't have a lotta gain. They just don't put out as much as an electrified condenser.
Perhaps sensitivity is the better word but either way the end result is you have to turn up the gain on your pre.
 
I third the comments about the 57 - I have condenser mics that can practically go straight to the A/D converter with no preamp (because, I suppose, they technically have a built in preamp), and if you think the 57 is low gain, try an SM7b sometime.

I think the clip sounds great, Minerman - how did you place the mic?
 
Thanks Ray, I agree. I like it raw or with the SD-1. The SD-1 tightens it up a little but let's it remain kind of natural sounding. The other two clips don't do much for me unless I want to do RATT covers. :D I don't hate them, they're just too much gain for my tastes.
That's it - RATT - heh. I like the raw the best. Do you notice a mid cut using the I5 when compared to a 57? The think I liked least about the TS-9 clip was where the mid peak seemed to be - wonder if it would sound substantially different with a 57. They all sound pretty good, though - I just think the raw is out in front.
 
That's it - RATT - heh. I like the raw the best. Do you notice a mid cut using the I5 when compared to a 57? The think I liked least about the TS-9 clip was where the mid peak seemed to be - wonder if it would sound substantially different with a 57. They all sound pretty good, though - I just think the raw is out in front.

Thanks dude. Um, I like the i5 because it's seems to be more a little more....natural? Mellow? Flat? All of the above? It doesn't seem to accentuate anything. I love me some 57, but it seems to be more sensitive to proximity effect and a little "spikier" than the i5.....which could kind of be interpreted as a mid cut for the i5, but I don't think it's actually milder in the mids.
 
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