hybrid drum recording - ridiculous approach?

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jccmusic

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ok - so i'm not exactly a newbie, but i'm a self-taught, impatient, i-hate-recording-with-computers kind of guy who deserves to be scolded for my ignorance and stubborn approach. compared to most on this forum, i really don't know what i'm doing.

that being said, i'm trying to record drums in cubase 6 in a hybrid sort of method -- here's what i'm using:

- alesis dm8 pro
- zoom r24
-mackie 1202
-cubase 6
-2008 macbook pro w/4gb ram
-owc 500gb hd @ 5400rpm
-real cymbals
-a couple small diaphragm condensers
-dbx 1215 rack eq if necessary
-a couple art tube mp's if necessary

i want to play the kit live using the dm8pro's drums, and my real hi-hat and ride. i am considering buying either ezdrummer or addictive drums, so that's part of my equation/question i suppose.

problems:

- latency (duh) - semi-old computer - can't use a better one. what i don't want is for a ridiculous signal path/method and my own ignorance to be what's holding me back.

-only 2 usb ports on the macbook pro - one is used up by the DONGLE! one must be used for the dm8pro so the drums are midi, i have zero left for the r24. should i get a usb hub? i only need 1 additional, but i imagine it should be powered, and will it slow down anything?

here's my stab at the best method:

2 mics (1 for hi-hat, 1 for ride) into mackie 1202, panned hard L and R and output into r24 inputs ... 1 and 2. r24 into macbook pro via usb

dm8pro into macbook pro as midi input/channel via usb.

dm8pro and mics as different channels - record simultaneously - so 3 total channels/tracks in cubase.

SO -
in order to achieve this, i'd have to get a usb hub. any recommendations? but if this setup is completely ridiculous in the first place, any recommendations on a better solution?

sorry this is so convoluted, that's kind of my style.

OH - also, can i still use the r24 as the output and plug my headphones into r24 and hear everything w/ zero latency monitoring if i'm doing it this way?

(posted this in the newbie forum - not sure if items can be posted x2, sorry if that's a no-no)
 
no one's even got a "you're an idiot, just do this _____" response? or a "that's kind of weird, but it should work" ???

come on, i'm the ideal new poster here - a basic knowledge, lots of bass ackwards ideas and methods, but the desire and patience to listen and learn from a sea full of experts.
 
You're using the Zoom as your interface, basically. Why not record the e-drums and cymbals to the Zoom, then transfer the tracks over to your computer?
 
mjbphotos said:
You're using the Zoom as your interface, basically. Why not record the e-drums and cymbals to the Zoom, then transfer the tracks over to your computer?
Click to expand...

hey - thanks for the response.

the issue there is that i'm trying to record the drums in midi - either with ez or addictive - only the hi-hat and ride will be audio tracks recorded with mics.
 
Oh, in that case sell the Zoom and buy a good interface with MIDI and mic preamps!

How about the MIDI drums to Cubase and record the mic-ed cymbals to your Zoom, then export the cymbal tracks to Cubase and line them up?
 
mjbphotos said:
Oh, in that case sell the Zoom and buy a good interface with MIDI and mic preamps!

How about the MIDI drums to Cubase and record the mic-ed cymbals to your Zoom, then export the cymbal tracks to Cubase and line them up?
Click to expand...

I would not use a hub for USB, this will cause added latency. Plug directly into the motherboard inputs. I ran across this with another USB type interface and the ones that come off the Motherboard (on a desktop the ones on the back, laptop not sure) have better performance. Hub will most likely cause latency issues.
 
thanks for the replies, but my problem still remains -- in using cubase (which requires a usb dongle) i am OUT of usb inputs on the board -- there are only two - one for the dongle, and one for either my e-drums or the interface. i need to plug in both, so i need at least one additional usb port.

while mjbphoto's solution (recording to cubase and the zoom simultaneously) would bypass this need, it adds a handful of frustrating steps to the process -- and i'd be unable to monitor drums and cymbals at the same time - since to use the zoom as the monitor, it'd have to be plugged into the computer via usb as an interface. unless i'm not thinking of something, this rules this solution out.

anyone else? is a hub really going to slow things down if i just have the e-drums and the cubase dongle plugged into it? this seems ridiculous to me since i'm sure lots of other people with laptops that only have 2 usb ports must run into this problem.
 
jccmusic said:
thanks for the replies, but my problem still remains -- in using cubase (which requires a usb dongle) i am OUT of usb inputs on the board -- there are only two - one for the dongle, and one for either my e-drums or the interface. i need to plug in both, so i need at least one additional usb port.

while mjbphoto's solution (recording to cubase and the zoom simultaneously) would bypass this need, it adds a handful of frustrating steps to the process -- and i'd be unable to monitor drums and cymbals at the same time - since to use the zoom as the monitor, it'd have to be plugged into the computer via usb as an interface. unless i'm not thinking of something, this rules this solution out.

anyone else? is a hub really going to slow things down if i just have the e-drums and the cubase dongle plugged into it? this seems ridiculous to me since i'm sure lots of other people with laptops that only have 2 usb ports must run into this problem.
Click to expand...

No, use the hub for the dongle and straight input for the interface.
 
DM60 said:
No, use the hub for the dongle and straight input for the interface.
Click to expand...

He needs 2 USB ports for his e-drums and the audio from the Zoom. That doesn't leave one for a hub or the dongle.

Going back to my idea of using the Zoom to record the cymbals, monitor the computer (e-drums), you should be able to 'hear' your cymbals well enough, move a headphone slightly off one ear if needed. Yes, there's the extra step to move the cymbal tracks over, but you're looking for a solution without buying an interface tha twill do what you need, right?
 
If you're still going to buy Addictive or EZ Drumber, do your research on the quality of the samples - in particular the snare. You'll find general agreement here that for certain sounds, it's hard to get a decent snare sound out of either...
 
mjbphotos said:
He needs 2 USB ports for his e-drums and the audio from the Zoom. That doesn't leave one for a hub or the dongle.

Going back to my idea of using the Zoom to record the cymbals, monitor the computer (e-drums), you should be able to 'hear' your cymbals well enough, move a headphone slightly off one ear if needed. Yes, there's the extra step to move the cymbal tracks over, but you're looking for a solution without buying an interface tha twill do what you need, right?
Click to expand...

I guess I am not tracking, EZdrummer through a DAW as it is a VSTi, why wouldn't you just push everything to the DAW, rough mix, then record back to Zoom, or down mix back to Zoom or ..., plus the Zoom acts as a hub, so the dongle could go into the Zoom. I must be missing something.
 
Put the dongle and the midi interface on the hub and the audio interface on the other usb input.

The best idea was already given, sell the zoom and the mixer and use the money to buy a two channel interface with preamps and a midi input. that way the midi doesn't use another usb port and everything is always in sync.

The only thing making this difficult is that you are trying to string a bunch of random equipment that you have laying around together, instead of just getting the right tool for the job you are trying to do now.

Audio interfaces with preamps and midi input can be had for relatively cheap.
 
DM60 said:
I guess I am not tracking, EZdrummer through a DAW as it is a VSTi, why wouldn't you just push everything to the DAW, rough mix, then record back to Zoom, or down mix back to Zoom or ..., plus the Zoom acts as a hub, so the dongle could go into the Zoom. I must be missing something.
Click to expand...

He needs 1 USB in for the MIDI from the Alesis e-drums; 1 USB for the audio from the Zoom (mic-ed cymbals); 1 USB for the dongle to run cubase on his computer.

One thing I hadn't thought of - does the Alesis have a MIDI-out jack, or only MIDI through USB? If the latter, it may be more difficult to find an interface to accommodate the need?
 
mjbphotos said:
He needs 1 USB in for the MIDI from the Alesis e-drums; 1 USB for the audio from the Zoom (mic-ed cymbals); 1 USB for the dongle to run cubase on his computer.

One thing I hadn't thought of - does the Alesis have a MIDI-out jack, or only MIDI through USB? If the latter, it may be more difficult to find an interface to accommodate the need?
Click to expand...

The Zoom 24 acts as a hub as it has two USB ports. From what I could tell, you can daisy chain two to increase your total inputs, or, you could use it for the validation. I didn't not see a midi port, so that would have to be a USB to MIDI adapter.
 
wow - if the usb port on the zoom can take the dongle and the computer can read the registration through that way -- no usb hub needed!

i'll be thrilled if that works, never would've thought of it. i guess that's why i ask the interwebs.

the dm8pro (e-drums) do not have a traditional midi port - only a usb for midi.

as for just scrapping the setup and buying a more 'appropriate' interface, just not an option. mainly because of $. also because the r24 is extremely versatile, and i'm not a pro, so the shortcomings of the preamps are no big deal to me -- it's a standalone piece of hardware and an 8 channel interface... and apparently a usb hub as well!

my particular pathos (or one of them) is that i'm old-fashioned. i like to actually play an instrument (hence the e-drums rather than just programming a plug-in), and i'm used to the simplicity of hardware (plug in a couple mics, press the power button, press record). using e-drums and the r24 do complicate my situation a bit, but they can both be used without a computer, or expensive software, or usb ports, or latency issues, or crashes, etc. etc. at the same time, i recognize the extreme power and flexibility that DAW's and midi give you - so my set up allows me to work both ways without spending a fortune.

if i were starting from scratch and had loads of cash, i would probably have lots of other gear/more refined methods/signal paths -- but i'd still have the zoom (or something like it) and the e-drums.
 
jccmusic said:
wow - if the usb port on the zoom can take the dongle and the computer can read the registration through that way -- no usb hub needed!

i'll be thrilled if that works, never would've thought of it. i guess that's why i ask the interwebs.

the dm8pro (e-drums) do not have a traditional midi port - only a usb for midi.

as for just scrapping the setup and buying a more 'appropriate' interface, just not an option. mainly because of $. also because the r24 is extremely versatile, and i'm not a pro, so the shortcomings of the preamps are no big deal to me -- it's a standalone piece of hardware and an 8 channel interface... and apparently a usb hub as well!

my particular pathos (or one of them) is that i'm old-fashioned. i like to actually play an instrument (hence the e-drums rather than just programming a plug-in), and i'm used to the simplicity of hardware (plug in a couple mics, press the power button, press record). using e-drums and the r24 do complicate my situation a bit, but they can both be used without a computer, or expensive software, or usb ports, or latency issues, or crashes, etc. etc. at the same time, i recognize the extreme power and flexibility that DAW's and midi give you - so my set up allows me to work both ways without spending a fortune.

if i were starting from scratch and had loads of cash, i would probably have lots of other gear/more refined methods/signal paths -- but i'd still have the zoom (or something like it) and the e-drums.
Click to expand...

I don't think you are too far off. I am looking at a few portastudios and Zoom is on my short list. I don't have the room for a full band and I don't want to lug my desktop. So, you are pretty close.

I would say, for about $200 or less, you could just get a little two channel with MIDI ports and use the Zoom as your Studio-On-The-Go, just a thought.
 
If the drum brain doesn't have a traditional midi output, then the only thing you can do is use a hub for the dongle and midi. If the zoom functions as a hub, you already have everything you need.
 
curses. zoom does NOT function as a hub - dongle can't be read through it. so i'll have to get a hub after all. i did find out though that the e-drums do have a traditional midi out - so perhaps an interface with a midi thru is somewhere in my future -- the issue though is still that i don't have the $ right now, and also that the r24 serves as an 8 channel interface.
 
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