Vintage Speakers....no one talks about this?

  • Thread starter Thread starter Seafroggys
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I've noticed that too. The JBL's I originally posted about had a studio version and a consumer version, both virtually identical except for minor alterations. Plus there's the semi-well known fact that NS-10's were originally bookshelf consumer speakers, and then were later marketed as studio monitors (NS-10m) with virtually no difference whatsoever.

Which really says that a speaker is a speaker. What is branded as one or another is really of no consequence. As long as the speaker is accurate, even if its a 'consumer' speaker, then why not use it? And on the flip side, I've heard guys at Gearslutz say the RP-6's (my monitors) make great hi-fi speakers, even though they're marketed as studio monitors.....
 
..EDIT: Craigslist has some JBL 4311's in good condition for $600. Apparently these were *the* near fields of the 1970's. 12" woofers though? Woof! I'm assuming these would be superior to my KRK RP6's by a long shot?
I have a set given to me by a friend. He had tried to dump them in a garage sale. They're rugged efficient and they'll rock for sure. I never dreamed they go for that much. I grabbed them cause I have a soft spot for the old JBL stuff. Actually -and no slight I know folks still use them ;) every time I heard them through the years they've easily struck me as definitely not flat.
Now maybe what would make for an interesting project.. Tri-amp'd and roll your own' x-over with one of them DSP processors..:D
 
I've noticed that too. The JBL's I originally posted about had a studio version and a consumer version, both virtually identical except for minor alterations. Plus there's the semi-well known fact that NS-10's were originally bookshelf consumer speakers, and then were later marketed as studio monitors (NS-10m) with virtually no difference whatsoever.

Which really says that a speaker is a speaker. What is branded as one or another is really of no consequence. As long as the speaker is accurate, even if its a 'consumer' speaker, then why not use it? And on the flip side, I've heard guys at Gearslutz say the RP-6's (my monitors) make great hi-fi speakers, even though they're marketed as studio monitors.....

https://homerecording.com/bbs/gener...s/my-monitor-arrangement-am-i-crazy-360260/6/
Don't know if you saw this, I'll post it again
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompany/Innovation/Documents/White Papers/LoudspeakersandRoomsPt2.pdf
Their up shot, accurate speakers work in both worlds. ..Quite a bit after the 4311' that ;)
 
It's worth noting (again) that at least with the higher-end British speaker manufacturers, they WERE trying for accurate and neutral in their speaker designs and avoided the overly coloured sound that a lot of so-called hifi manufacturers elsewhere did. As evidence of this, note several of the speakers I mentioned that were marketed both as monitors (generally with XLR inputs) and domestic hifi (generally with bare-wire terminals)--but, besides the connectors, the actual speakers were identical.

Yes Bobbsy, B&W is one that comes to mind. I was a B&W sales rep for years, and knew John Bowers (the "B" of B&W) very well. They went to extraordinary lengths to produce accurate un-colored sound.

Aside from cabinet design, crossover and driver design, in final voicing the B&W group would listen to the speaker for no more than 30 minutes, leave the lab and walk down the street to listen to live music for around 30 minutes, in order to "tune" their ears back to what real instruments are supposed to sound like.
 
Yes Bobbsy, B&W is one that comes to mind. I was a B&W sales rep for years, and knew John Bowers (the "B" of B&W) very well. They went to extraordinary lengths to produce accurate un-colored sound.

Aside from cabinet design, crossover and driver design, in final voicing the B&W group would listen to the speaker for no more than 30 minutes, leave the lab and walk down the street to listen to live music for around 30 minutes, in order to "tune" their ears back to what real instruments are supposed to sound like.
yes ..... and to some degree that's how pretty much all the higher end manufacturers do their speakers. They all make a great effort to make them as accurate as they can. That's why I always jump in when I hear that statement, "Hi-Fi speakers are always hyped" thing ...... it's just not true except for cheap mass market stuff.

I'm really not saying people should use home speakers for monitors ...... they're usually not nearfields ..... but I am driven to correct the misinformation about them being hyped.
I'd be quite happy mixing on a pair of B&Ws or Paradigms ( I do) or Theils or any of the other many many brands of that caliber.
 
Some older speakers were pretty good. I mix on a pair of 4312s regularly. (I have my Paradigms at that studio but haven't used them lately.) But measurement was not as precise and so they had no objective way to know certain things. The final tuning of the design was done by ear so there were plenty of fairly accurate good sounding speakers at the top of the market. Having two or three different pairs in the control room allowed engineers to average out the deviations in a time when it just wasn't possible to make a quality dub on the spot to be taken to different systems.

I do some work at home on my JBL 2600s and a cheesy Jensen sub. It's not the perfect system but I listen to all sorts of things on it so I'm intimately familiar with it. Because I can instantly compare what I'm doing to any other source, FM, CD, DVD, TV, I can essentially calibrate my ear to the system. I have two pair of the 2600s and a JBL center speaker so it's destined to be a surround setup, something no studio I work in has.
 
Some older speakers were pretty good. I mix on a pair of 4312s regularly. (I have my Paradigms at that studio but haven't used them lately.) But measurement was not as precise and so they had no objective way to know certain things. The final tuning of the design was done by ear so there were plenty of fairly accurate good sounding speakers at the top of the market. Having two or three different pairs in the control room allowed engineers to average out the deviations in a time when it just wasn't possible to make a quality dub on the spot to be taken to different systems.

I do some work at home on my JBL 2600s and a cheesy Jensen sub. It's not the perfect system but I listen to all sorts of things on it so I'm intimately familiar with it. Because I can instantly compare what I'm doing to any other source, FM, CD, DVD, TV, I can essentially calibrate my ear to the system. I have two pair of the 2600s and a JBL center speaker so it's destined to be a surround setup, something no studio I work in has.

Here is a question:

I have a Yamaha receiver and some JBLs attached (Stereo speakers, not monitors). The Yamaha calibrates (comes with a mic and calibration setup built in)the receiver to the room and speakers. Do you think this improves the neutrality or just makes them more pleasurable?
 
Here is a question:

I have a Yamaha receiver and some JBLs attached (Stereo speakers, not monitors). The Yamaha calibrates (comes with a mic and calibration setup built in)the receiver to the room and speakers. Do you think this improves the neutrality or just makes them more pleasurable?

It's unlikely to make them more accurate. Automatic measurement and correction is more likely to create problems than solve them. It takes more sophisticated measurement plus skilled human interpretation to get meaningful information. Most automatic measurement tools are simple real time analyzers that can't distinguish the direct sound from reflections. That can result in inappropriate attempts at correction.
 
It's unlikely to make them more accurate. Automatic measurement and correction is more likely to create problems than solve them. It takes more sophisticated measurement plus skilled human interpretation to get meaningful information. Most automatic measurement tools are simple real time analyzers that can't distinguish the direct sound from reflections. That can result in inappropriate attempts at correction.

In addition to what Bouldersound said, EQ always affects the phase relationships of the frequencies that are EQ'd on a loudspeaker. That would become a major problem in a mix trying to get the spatial parts correct.
 
Tannoy

Because you need accurate monitoring, and vintage speakers, even if they sound "good", are not particularly accurate. You don't need your monitoring system to alter the sound like mics, preamps and signal processing do.


Vintage speakers not accurate? Thats one of the most stunning statements I have heard since many years. You should visit my Tannoy Mnitor Gold Website and see one of the most accurate speakers of the world.

kindest regards,
PE1MMK
Hans
 
Vintage speakers not accurate? Thats one of the most stunning statements I have heard since many years. You should visit my Tannoy Mnitor Gold Website and see one of the most accurate speakers of the world.

kindest regards,
PE1MMK
Hans

There's always at least one exception.
 
I'm lucky to have a bundle of "vintage" gear.
Two JVC Quadraphonic amps, with unlabelled speakers from the mid early 70's, a pair of ARx speakers, ( replaced the attenuators a couple of years ago & repacked the cabs with a fibre - can't remember what type but is was the recommended weight & length of fibre -safer than fibreglass), a pair of floorstanding Bose speakers (can't remember the series) but whilst they sound good in the living room but aren't accurate at all with the direct/reflect array and bass generated in the column.
I've monitored/mixed with the ARs - very nice to do & I'd had them for some time before so I "knew" them well enough to compensate.
Particle board & plastic certainly tell their own story these days. My specifically bought "monitors" are better in some ways than the gear I was using - probably more detailed in the upper mids - & they've helped my mixing along somewhat.
I still enjoy the listening gear I have. I also have a bundle of Quad albums convcerted to DTS so I can play them from a decent DVD player into the quad amp/s - BLISS.
 
Vintage speakers not accurate? Thats one of the most stunning statements I have heard since many years. You should visit my Tannoy Mnitor Gold Website and see one of the most accurate speakers of the world.

kindest regards,
PE1MMK
Hans
Hello Hans. Are you associated with Tannoy?
I've always understood point or minimum sources' as a desirable goal, as does Danley.. you're in good company perhaps
Synergy Horn | Danley Sound Labs | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.
I latched on to 'SP Techs -one driver down to 700hz at least (no longer in business but glad I could when I did ;)
I was curious though, are the residential lines the only concentric models now?
 
JBL-4311's --- if they are in good condition I would grab them ASAP.

In the late 1960s to late 1970s, the JBL-4311 and the later released 4312 were basically the industry standard studio monitor. My own studio had a pair and they were the monitor source for recording and mixing many hit recordings. In fact, they were so good that I on my arrival at the studio one morning, I discovered that over night someone had obviously found them so good that they just had to have them --- never saw them again !!!!!!!!!!!!

If I was going to be building a new studio and I required mid-field monitors, I would probably start searching for a pair.

If I remember correctly, the only difference between the studio and commercial version of the speakers was that the studio version were painted grey and the commercial version was either black or veneered (I can't remember which).

In my studio, I drove the speakers with a 250Watt valve amplifier that I designed and built (including a very special output transformer). I still have this amplifier in storage and intend to bring it back into operation within the next couple of months.

In my Lounge Room, I have a set of Tannoy Golds (absolutely amazing sound) that are driven by a Crown DC-300 amplifier and in my Media Room, for the front L/R speakers I have a set of Goodman Tri-Axiums mounted in the original sloping front, Sherwood enclosures and these are driven by a 150Watt Yamaha amplifier (far better sound than anything else I have heard for this purpose).

I also have a couple of Westrex 15" sub-speakers (they resonate at 25HZ if hung by rope on a clothes line) that are mounted in a couple of cabinets I built, along with a JBL 10" low mid, a JBL 5" high mid and a JBL horn for the tops (I can't recall the model numbers of the JBL speakers). These boxes are tri-amped with transistor based amplifiers that I designed. These two boxes can almost crack concrete if I wind up the amps. The total power being delivered to each of the boxes is in the order of 1200Watts RMS (note RMS not music power).

By the way, the Westrex speakers have a handle to carry them and I can only carry one at a time --- I think they weigh something like 40 - 50 KG each.

The lot being ALL vintage and I would put them up against virtually any speaker box on the market today, apart from possibly the Meyer studio monitor (can't recall the model -- could possibly be something like HR-1) as their clarity/sound is nothing short of frightening, BUT so is their price !!!!!

David
 
I've been mixing on a pair of 4312s for years. Took an album to get mastered in a room with ADAMs and my mixes sounded...pretty much the same.
 
I've been mixing on a pair of 4312s for years. Took an album to get mastered in a room with ADAMs and my mixes sounded...pretty much the same.

I got really lucky last summer and nabbed a pair of 4312a's at a yard sale for 15 bucks.

Best buy I've ever made.
I still can't believe my good fortune.

Dude discounted them from $25 for me just to unload them!
 
I got really lucky last summer and nabbed a pair of 4312a's at a yard sale for 15 bucks.

Best buy I've ever made.
I still can't believe my good fortune.

Dude discounted them from $25 for me just to unload them!
LOL, sounds familiar..
I have a set given to me by a friend. He had tried to dump them in a garage sale...
Odd thing about perceived value sometimes.
 
Well the 4311's disappeared after about a week, so I'm thinking they were sold. BUUUUUT.....last night I caught some 4410's on craigslist for $200. I'm seeing the guy as soon as possible, according to the ineterwebs these are still consider highly regarded neutral studio monitors. Better than the 4311's by a good margin. And they're over half the price that the 4311's were going for.
 
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