How to compare pro mixers?

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bcfromfl

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Hi everyone --

I've been studying Dave Pensado's "Into The Lair" videos, and am blown away by the attention he gives, his depth of understanding, the quality of his ears, the final results, etc. (Not to mention his generosity!) Since he's the only pro I know of with the cojones to display his techniques in instructional videos, I have no way of comparing his skill against others.

(I guess that's not entirely true...I just learned about Alan Parson's DVD set on mixing, for $100 on Amazon. Pensado gives his knowledge away for free.)

He's obviously top-notch, and I've noted how his skill crosses from genre to genre, as does his appreciation for different types of music. I recognize that my mixes will need a pro at some point, but my style and genre isn't represented by what he's demonstrated, and other pro websites don't really specify beyond, "...here's a list of artists we've worked with."

How would you evaluate his skill, and technique, against others? Is his skill pretty much "typical" in the upper-level of the industry, or are there definite niches carved by different engineers? I suppose I could start pulling my favorite CDs off the shelf and looking at credits, but I think there's also a "reputation factor" with artists and engineers, that translates into higher fees. Yes, the results are there, but I'm not so sure with a skill like this, price can be the only determining factor. Interesting that on Dave's studio page, he lists a "major" and an "indie" price differentiation -- indicating at least a compassion towards us beginners! :thumbs up: I don't know what these fees are, but this at least made an impression on me.

One thing that may be a slight issue is that I work with Logic, and he uses ProTools. Small thing, perhaps, but it could possibly require an additional step or two with file saves of separate tracks. (BTW, does ProTools recognize aiff files?) Is the DAW a consideration?

Thanks!
 
bcfromfl said:
[h=2]How to compare pro mixers?[/h]
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That's a hard one because the only thing worth considering is the end result and there are not many "badly mixed" albums/singles in the sense that it's such a subjective thing. Each mixer has their biases and preferences and that's what I find fascinating.
 
There's only one way to compare mixes and mixers. Try using two of these:

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Thanks for your input. If the suggestion is to "use my ears," then it sounds like the proposal is to pay for mixes from more than one engineer, then choose the one I like the best? That would be fine if I had the money to do things that way...hence my question how to make a good choice beforehand.

It's probably unrealistic for a small artist with limited experience to do with his own mixes what a pro could do. The best most indies can hope to do is prepare a mix with enough care such that the engineer can see the direction you're trying to go, and the mood, then enhance that or even bring other ideas to the table. I think that's one thing Pensado does well, but it's impossible to determine what other engineers may be able to provide because the same information isn't shared elsewhere.

It seems that the general rule of thumb is about $1,000 per track, but it wouldn't be money well-spent if your mix is orchestral and the engineer only has experience with rap or electronica...
 
Just do it yourself. That's what most of us do, and for some of us, that's a big part of the fun of it.
 
bcfromfl said:
...then it sounds like the proposal is to pay for mixes from more than one engineer, then choose the one I like the best?
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If you want/need to go with a pro/commercial mixer...best thing is to first narrow it down to the mixers who do your style of music the most....then listen to a bunch of stuff that each has done, and pick the one that comes closest to your direction/style.
If your going to pay someone, you will at least have an opportunity to communicate with them about what you are after, ect....so I'm sure in the end you can narrow it down to the right person.
 
Greg -- I mix my own projects, but I also recognize that, being self-taught, I know very little compared with a pro. Plus, there is the equipment issue...a lot of magic that happens as a final mix is polished and on its way to mastering, is due to equipment and/or software that the little guy just can't afford. Yes, ProTools or Logic come with loads of plugins, but many key efx lack the quality of standalone units. I'm in love with the Bricasti reverb, but the only way I can use something like that is for a pro to finish my vocal tracks.

Do I spend an additional $10-15,000 on equipment that I like and think would benefit me, and then try to learn how to tweak each one? Or, do I spend less than that to still get those pieces of equipment used on my material, and also benefit from the know-how of someone using them correctly?

miroslav -- Thanks for your suggestion. I'm still digging to find indie engineers who might be candidates. I guess you're right, direct communication is probably the only way to iron out the final decision.
 
bcfromfl said:
Greg -- I mix my own projects, but I also recognize that, being self-taught, I know very little compared with a pro. Plus, there is the equipment issue...a lot of magic that happens as a final mix is polished and on its way to mastering, is due to equipment and/or software that the little guy just can't afford. Yes, ProTools or Logic come with loads of plugins, but many key efx lack the quality of standalone units. I'm in love with the Bricasti reverb, but the only way I can use something like that is for a pro to finish my vocal tracks.

Do I spend an additional $10-15,000 on equipment that I like and think would benefit me, and then try to learn how to tweak each one? Or, do I spend less than that to still get those pieces of equipment used on my material, and also benefit from the know-how of someone using them correctly?

.
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Gear plays a little part in what you hear. I don't believe though that it's the magical poo-poo that makes a song or track great. Do whatever you want to do, but I have to ask, do you want to spend the money on a "pro" product that probably very few people will even hear? I'm a firm believer in DIY and putting "pro" engineers, producers, and mastering guys out of work.
 
Greg_L said:
I'm a firm believer in DIY and putting "pro" engineers, producers, and mastering guys out of work.
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While I do agree on the DIY attitude....I seriously doubt anyone on HR is putting pros out of business. :D

Maybe some of those "marginal" pros, the guys who are just getting into it at the lower pro levels...but the real pros still get plenty of work that pays very well.
 
miroslav said:
While I do agree on the DIY attitude....I seriously doubt anyone on HR is putting pros out of business. :D

Maybe some of those "marginal" pros, the guys who are just getting into it at the lower pro levels...but the real pros still get plenty of work that pays very well.
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No doubt. I just meant for me, I'm not paying anyone to do anything, ever, and I encourage others to do the same.
 
Well yeah, you're right that many folks who are mainly doing this for some Internet forum and YouTube playback of their music, but tossing money at pro levels....might be going overkill....so I agree it might best be done with a DIY approach.

Now...for anyone young enough and having the serious talent that could(?) really take them to some higher success....using the pros can have it's benefits, not just for the pro audio quality, but also for the networking...since pros tend to mingle with other pros.
Of course...it takes a lot of objectivity and good dose of reality for people to make that call about their own music and skill, so we often end up chasing mostly after dreams....but if you don't have some dreams, you might just not even bother doing anything at all.

So there's many things to consider when investing serious money and time into making music. I think if you are willing to spend the money even if it's at pure hobby level...it's OK if it makes you feel good. :)
 
Greg_L said:
...but I have to ask, do you want to spend the money on a "pro" product that probably very few people will even hear?
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This could be a whole discussion in itself. I suppose if you're recording gigs, and giving away to friends/family, or even selling do-it-yourself CDs at coffehouse gigs, then a pro engineer doesn't make sense. In my case, I've spent years developing some music that I think has a chance at a respectable audience, and if I limit the final product out of the gate by doing it myself, then I've just limited my chances of success because it's an amateurish offering.

The fact that I've spent years orchestrating stuff, and mixing, doesn't mean that it's extraordinarily special. Someone else who knew what they were doing, had more equipment, and were more familiar with mixing techniques, could maybe have done the same thing in much less time. But the point is, if *I* can tell the difference in how something sounds, but can't replicate the same in my mixes, then by handicapping my art by my lack of engineering skill I've compromised myself, and opened myself up to perhaps unwarranted criticism. Perhaps this lack of respect because of a halfway job could cost me exposure and airplay?

There might not even be a breakeven point on the number of CDs vs. the investment in getting them pressed. But maybe the point isn't to make money on the CDs? Maybe the point is to share something special with others, that you are satisfied beyond a doubt that it's the absolute best it can be. That's art. And what if that CD you've sweated out, and demanded perfection from, leads to something else you couldn't have even imagined? So what that the production costs were more than total potential sales. But the thing it led to is priceless...

I don't enjoy hacking away at my computer, trying to learn how to tweak things, or get the right order of efx in my sidechains. Some folks excel at that. I'm just not that interested in this aspect of production, and there are better uses of my time musically. Unfortunately, I've had to learn how to do this (what I know, anyway) out of necessity.

miroslav -- great points. Thank you!
 
I guess I come from a totally different mindset. I don't share the idealistic and romantic approach. Good luck in your quest.
 
Greg_L said:
No doubt. I just meant for me, I'm not paying anyone to do anything, ever, and I encourage others to do the same.
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Since it's a hobby for me, it would make no sense for me to get to mixing / mastering and say, "oh I'm in over my head," and then pay to send out my tracks to be professionally mastered.

I read here because there are some great professional recording studio types that are regular posters and give out a lot of great free advice for us hacks.

Even if one of us here were so fortunate as to produce something that somebody actually wanted, well then surely the producer could afford to have it professionally mastered at that point.

But I'm with Greg on this, the artists that actually ever make it either totally suck and are placed in the public eye by The Machine, or are so incredibly lucky for being recognized for true talent that they could just as easily been struck by lightning; just getting heard in the current cacaphony that is the music industry today is virtually impossible, IMO.

BTW, I just installed an ART PRO VLA II tube compressor/limiter in my commercial stereo rack to get a handle on the public content that we play in our business (my library is currently at about 30k songs). Cool unit, fun to learn; I may unplug it and use it at home sometime.
 
I love doing all my own work, but if I had a track I felt strongly about, I might hire a pro mixer engineer.
I mean credited, maybe a Grammy. There's hundreds of these guys around and they'd love to do great work for you.
Find a song you like the mix, the feel, the groove of. Contact the engineer and get a quote. Mention to him you like his tune.
Good luck
Live your dream
 
Thanks tashmoo -- I've still got a ways to go before that point, but I'm trying to get a good understanding of what my options will be when that day comes. Even if he'd agree, I know I couldn't afford David Foster and team :D so I'm trying to find an indie engineer with the same chops!
 
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