Some Music theory 101 noob questions.

[Xdrummer]

Rami, I have much respect for your contributions to this site and I rarely disagree with your views - but in this case I do disagree. Like you, I've played drums for a very long time (40 plus years) and I have spent a lot of time trying to get my head around the concept of playing behind the beat vs. ahead of the beat - and I have carelfully analyzed hundreds of hours of studio recordings I've performed on and countless recordings of live performances. There indeed is such a thing as playing behind, ahead and on the beat. While it may not be a conscious approach, it is a feel that is inherent in most seasoned drummers.

While I do agree that if a drummer plays behind the beat for a whole song - then yes, it does simply establish the beat. However, as one example of behind the beat that can be heard in many recordings, often a drummer will play a little behind during a verse and then go a little ahead in a chorus (to gvie the song a lift) and then settle back into the groove.

Old R & B has behind the beat grooves all over the place. Many ballads use the behind the beat groove and then hit the beat more agreesively in the chorus, etc.

I'm not talking about straying or dragging or rushing - I'm talking about manipulating the groove. I've olayed a lot of R & B, funk & "soft jazz" and I manipulate the groove all the time - and if I'm working with good players, they also know how to fall into that groove and then jump out of it when needed.

Now some genres (harder rock, punk, speed metal, etc.) tend to push the groove so the behind the beat feel is not as common. Although you can hear it very clearly in much of the early Sabbeth recordings.

Regarding playing to a click - rarely (if at all) can a drummer consistantly play on the click - both because it is rare that someone has that level of technique and because each person's feel and interpretation of the groove varies. In fact when drummers (or any musician) gets so anal as to focus that intensely on the click - they then become a slave to the click and the performance suffers.

Music needs to breath - playing ahead and behind the beat (at approriate places within a song) - is was allows the music to breath - and makes the difference between music with a fell vs. programed beats that are more technology than art.

 

[RAMI]

Rami, I have much respect for your contributions to this site and I rarely disagree with your views - but in this case I do disagree. Like you, I've played drums for a very long time (40 plus years) and I have spent a lot of time trying to get my head around the concept of playing behind the beat vs. ahead of the beat - and I have carelfully analyzed hundreds of hours of studio recordings I've performed on and countless recordings of live performances. There indeed is such a thing as playing behind, ahead and on the beat. While it may not be a conscious approach, it is a feel that is inherent in most seasoned drummers.

While I do agree that if a drummer plays behind the beat for a whole song - then yes, it does simply establish the beat. However, as one example of behind the beat that can be heard in many recordings, often a drummer will play a little behind during a verse and then go a little ahead in a chorus (to gvie the song a lift) and then settle back into the groove.

Old R & B has behind the beat grooves all over the place. Many ballads use the behind the beat groove and then hit the beat more agreesively in the chorus, etc.

I'm not talking about straying or dragging or rushing - I'm talking about manipulating the groove. I've olayed a lot of R & B, funk & "soft jazz" and I manipulate the groove all the time - and if I'm working with good players, they also know how to fall into that groove and then jump out of it when needed.

Now some genres (harder rock, punk, speed metal, etc.) tend to push the groove so the behind the beat feel is not as common. Although you can hear it very clearly in much of the early Sabbeth recordings.

Regarding playing to a click - rarely (if at all) can a drummer consistantly play on the click - both because it is rare that someone has that level of technique and because each person's feel and interpretation of the groove varies. In fact when drummers (or any musician) gets so anal as to focus that intensely on the click - they then become a slave to the click and the performance suffers.

Music needs to breath - playing ahead and behind the beat (at approriate places within a song) - is was allows the music to breath - and makes the difference between music with a fell vs. programed beats that are more technology than art.

No problem disagreeing with me. That's what these discussions are all about.

My point is this. As some of you have already mentioned, it's impossible to play EXACTLY on every click. So, even if a drummer tried playing right on a click, some of those notes will be ahead and some will be behind anyway. But now we're sayin that a drummer CAN play consistently ahead of the beat or behind it. How can that be? If you do it enough that it's noticeable, then it will souind off. If you're talking micro-seconds, then how can a drummer all of a sudden be accurate enough to be able to play micro-seconds behind a beat when it's impossible for him to play right on the beat to the closest micro-second? I realize one can play around the beat or click, but that happens naturally anyway.

The Stones example that Mixsit posted doesn't show my anything other than the Stones sounding like the Stones, which is a deliberately loose vibe, which has everyone not really playing together. But if we have to go back 50+ years to find an example of something, I think it's safe to say that either it isn't done that often, or it's an abstract concept that people THINK is about playing behind (or ahead of) the beat., but is really just about playing "around" the meter.

 

[famous beagle]

Xdrummer and RAMI:

I see both of your points. But Xdrummer, I think what RAMI is saying is ... what exactly do you mean by "playing behind the beat?" If you're just slowing down a bit, then you're changing the tempo. If you speed up, then ... same thing.

To me, the only real way that a drummer could "play behind the beat" for the whole song would be to hit the snare a tiny bit late on 2 and 4. That makes sense to me. Or maybe he could do that with the kick and the snare. But the hat or ride is the time-keeper, and once you start messing with that, then "the beat" shifts with it.

What I always thought of when I heard the term was what people play during fills and such (on drums or any instrument). Whereas rushing has a very distinctive, nervous sound, playing "behind the beat" (slightly dragging) has a very lazy sound. Granted, it can't be much behind it at all; otherwise, it just starts to sound like poor timing. So if the drums are doing a fill, for instance, they might just lay back ever so slightly with regards to the tempo.

This song, IMO, sounds kind of like the drummer is playing behind the beat a bit on the snare. Not every snare hit is late, but many of them are just laying back ever so slightly. The count-off in the beginning is terrible - he actually starts playing a good few bpm faster than he counts - but once the groove settles in, the snare sounds as though it's laying back a little here and there to me. In particular, listen to the 3rd snare hit after the song has officially started (in other words, after the pickup measure).

The Black Crowes - Bad Luck Blue Eyes Goodbye (Studio Version) - YouTube

 

[RAMI]

Right Beagle. And just to be clear, I might be 100% wrong, but I need to know why I'm wrong about something as opposed to just accepting popular phrases and abstract concepts as truth.

It's not new to me. Obviously, in my years of playing, I've had people tell me to play a little behind the beat. All I did was put on a lazy face, pout my lips, change my body language, play the exact same thing (maybe slightly slower), and they say "Yeah, that's it!"

 

[famous beagle]

Right Beagle. And just to be clear, I might be 100% wrong, but I need to know why I'm wrong about something as opposed to just accepting popular phrases and abstract concepts as truth.

It's not new to me. Obviously, in my years of playing, I've had people tell me to play a little behind the beat. All I did was put on a lazy face, pout my lips, change my body language, play the exact same thing (maybe slightly slower), and they say "Yeah, that's it!"

Yeah, it's an abstract thing for sure.

Xdrummer: You said you analyzed countless hours. What exactly were you doing differently when you were playing "behind the beat"? I'd really like to know.

 

[mixsit]

Xdrummer and RAMI:

I see both of your points. But Xdrummer, I think what RAMI is saying is ... what exactly do you mean by "playing behind the beat?" If you're just slowing down a bit, then you're changing the tempo. If you speed up, then ... same thing.

To me, the only real way that a drummer could "play behind the beat" for the whole song would be to hit the snare a tiny bit late on 2 and 4. That makes sense to me. Or maybe he could do that with the kick and the snare. But the hat or ride is the time-keeper, and once you start messing with that, then "the beat" shifts with it.

What I always thought of when I heard the term was what people play during fills and such (on drums or any instrument). Whereas rushing has a very distinctive, nervous sound, playing "behind the beat" (slightly dragging) has a very lazy sound. Granted, it can't be much behind it at all; otherwise, it just starts to sound like poor timing. So if the drums are doing a fill, for instance, they might just lay back ever so slightly with regards to the tempo...l]

I would think that's pretty much more in line with how it might work out mostly- with parts of the playing being pushed in and around the tempo.

Rami, I have much respect for your contributions to this site and I rarely disagree with your views - but in this case I do disagree. Like you, I've played drums for a very long time (40 plus years) and I have spent a lot of time trying to get my head around the concept of playing behind the beat vs. ahead of the beat - and I have carelfully analyzed hundreds of hours of studio recordings I've performed on and countless recordings of live performances. There indeed is such a thing as playing behind, ahead and on the beat. While it may not be a conscious approach, it is a feel that is inherent in most seasoned drummers.

While I do agree that if a drummer plays behind the beat for a whole song - then yes, it does simply establish the beat. However, as one example of behind the beat that can be heard in many recordings, often a drummer will play a little behind during a verse and then go a little ahead in a chorus (to gvie the song a lift) and then settle back into the groove.

Xdrummer wouldn't it be even more or as common, where the drums keep to the tempo but parts of the kit (just the snare or something for example) push it in and out, in various parts of a measure or 'phrase even?
IDK, like if the whole track gets set back a few ms'.. that just seems the song's just being played a little later in in the world..
(simple minded guitar player here...

 

[Manslick]

Well shit. All this time, I have been practicing drumming to a click and now, just when I am getting to where my transients are on the mark, I find out from the pros that I should be off the mark.
Okay that’s cool, now I have a good comeback in the clinic when someone notices a fault in my timing.

I really don’t think we can explain this in typing. The net is chock full of pages of dudes beating this question to death.

Score 1 for Joker1.

 

[jokerone]

Right Beagle. And just to be clear, I might be 100% wrong, but I need to know why I'm wrong about something as opposed to just accepting popular phrases and abstract concepts as truth.

It's not new to me. Obviously, in my years of playing, I've had people tell me to play a little behind the beat. All I did was put on a lazy face, pout my lips, change my body language, play the exact same thing (maybe slightly slower), and they say "Yeah, that's it!"

So playing behind the beat in this case (Reggae) means you are playing a a bit slower than the beat, not just offset from the drums?

 

[mixsit]

..The whole band has to have that jell factor to pull it off and it takes a lot of playing together to be able to pull it off on queue. It’s hard for a one man band to pull it off playing to a metronome. ...

Yes!
Even if I can't ‘know it definitively.. this strikes me as at least one an insight in to it.

How about just the opposite to gelling'- When you hear a track (song) and yeah the tempo might be ok, but it feels like the band hasn’t quite agreed on that tempo.. You could (logically”) say well that’s almost ‘the same thing’-- but for it feeling totally wrong!

 

[mixsit]

So playing behind the beat in this case (Reggae) means you are playing a a bit slower than the beat, not just offset from the drums?

I gave the example of my mando' player.. I believe you can push or pull' a track around the pocket with a few ms of delay (from one side or the oter). Try it on a few likely candidate' tracks. But I still think -in general, it may (offten?) not be as straight forward as 'offsetting one of two 'perfectly played' pieces?

 

[RAMI]

So playing behind the beat in this case (Reggae) means you are playing a a bit slower than the beat, not just offset from the drums?

Don't ask me, I don't believe in any of it.

I just meant that when I did all that stupid shit with my face and body that I described above, it had a psycho-acoustic effect on everyone else. and made them think I was actually playing "behind the beat".

 

[smili]

it had a psycho-acoustic effect on everyone else. and made them think I was actually playing "behind the beat".

It makes me wonder if it's a more nuanced way that drummers and bass players talk about what us simple guitar players speak of simply as "the groove"? I'm terrible at counting and timing - I try to just play what feels right. The Stones tune sample to me had an interesting push/pull thing going back and forth to me but I'm getting the feeling from the discussion that drummers speak of it as something more precise and consistent than that inhale/exhale surge thing that the Stones had going there. Could be wrong though. (obviously ;-)

 

[grimtraveller]

Sometimes, my drumming mate Michael and I would be recording or playing live somewhere and he would stop and say "we're dragging" and I never really knew what he meant, even 32 years on ! But then, I'd be just as bad, sometimes, we'd do a take and he'd say let's do it again but I'd say 'no, this is the one. It's got that feel to it'. It's virtually impossible to explain, kind of like when a group of actors have done 30 takes of the same scene and the director chooses take 19. It's more than the part being 'correct'. It's intangible. And therein lies some of the difficulty and why some go one way and the others the other.
I think many of us have terms that describe certain things we do/like but there isn't necessarilly a universally accepted meaning to any of those nebulous words/concepts. Whereas pretty much everybody understands "this is shit" and "this is the shit".
By the way, I thought "Don'tcha bother me" was really sloppy. All that stuff about "we follow Keith, not Charlie" shouldn't obscure the fact that the Stones could be a really tight band with Keith's guitar prominent but Charlie establishing the framework ~ pretty much like all drummers in whatever genre.

 

[grimtraveller]

So playing behind the beat in Reggae means you are playing a a bit slower than the beat, not just offset from the drums?

It's kind of mythical that there is only one kind of reggae drumming. If you listen to lots of different reggae songs spanning the years, you'll see that there are many different ways of playing reggae drums. Sometimes, the bass pulse might be carrying the beat and the drummer is playing all around that.
I remember a couple of years ago, as I was driving around, I was listening to Bob Marley and the Wailers' "Is this love" and I thought the drum pattern was really ordinary. And it occurred to me that though the song was unmistakably reggae, you could take the drums on it and without changing the kick pattern, put it into a swinging jazz tune and it would work. All you'd have to do was alter other parts of the kit. So later that day, my mate and I were recording a piece called "Acker pants" and because he's good with reggae drumming, I explained this to him and told him to keep switching from the reggae to the swing~y but to keep the same kick 'thump~thump~thump~thump~' basis going. So the pulse remained but other parts of the kit did different things in different parts of the tune.
Sometimes, it's surprizing how actually straightforward some reggae drumming is. It's the context that changes and makes it seem so weird.

Yeah, it's an abstract thing for sure.

Everything musical should be explainable. But not everything is always explainable by everyone to everyone elses' understanding or satisfaction. It's the beauty of something that has both scientific and artistic dimensions.

the difference between music with a feel vs. programed beats that are more technology than art.

I kind of think that many musicians dislike programmed beats because they're programmed.

It often strikes me more as a moral judgement than one of actual timing. If a song is a great song and you like it, or even if you just like it, are you going to quibble over the fact that the beat {essentially the drum sound} is a programmed one ?
But having said that, I see and appreciate both sides.

it's impossible to play EXACTLY on every click.

^^^^^^^This is an observation I've made for a few years now.
Clicks are simply references, not slave masters. Drummers, percussionists, bassists, keyboardists, flautists, guitarists, vocalists, indeed, the whole musical shebang are quite capable of playing around the beat if they want to. Jazz drummers used to do it all the time when jazz started getting free and merging with rock in the late 50s and through the 60s. The drummers would play all kinds of rhythmic patterns but no matter how abstract they went, often the beat continued to be implied. Which is how all the band could go off in funny directions and then at any given moment, 'hit the same groove' together and go back into something recognizable.

 

[Xdrummer]

Beagle,

Since you asked me to explain what my analysis of my own playing revealed – I’ll try …. But trying to explain a feel of music is like an artist trying to explain a shade of green.
Let me start by saying I grew up on Motown, Stax and all the R& B of the 60’s. I did a lot of gigs as a white drummer in all black bands during the 60's & 70's – so I developed a solid feel for R&B grooves (both because I love the music and because I wouldn’t get the gigs if I couldn’t groove).

Over the years many players have told me they enjoyed working with me because I had such a good feel and laid down a pocket that felt good to play to (obviously, if the other players can’t feel the pocket – then nothing the drummer does is going to help the groove).

So, I started to payd attention to how I played, listened to many recordings and when sessions permitted, listed to the drums compared to the click (I wanted to make sure that I did not lose the feel - and in trun lose gigs)

What I found is the groove I set with the snare, kick and hat played around the meter, while still maintaining the tempo of the song. During verses the notes I play on the hat (normally a combination of ¼, 1/8 & 1/16 notes) tend to stay on meter of even push the meter a little (ahead of the beat). The kick notes (normally a combination of whole, ½, 1/4 and 1/8 notes) tend to follow the meter (anchoring the song) – but the snare (let’s say normally ½ notes with various ghost notes) tends to lag a little (behind the beat). The combination of all these notes supports the tempo (does not drag) – but does create a deep pocket. When songs head into a chorus or a guitar solo, etc. my snare notes tend to stay more precisely on the meter (or even a little ahead) and the hi hat notes also tend to push the meter a little – while the kick continues to stay steady to anchor the tempo. This adds a little energy to certain parts of the song – and then if it goes back to a verse, my snare and hat tend to settle back into the pocket.

If I could draw a diagram, it would look like an oval, rather than a symmetrically perfect circle. When you listen to a train on tracks (I enjoy train rides, heavy taken many trains and listen to the grooves) – the sound has a groove, but the sound of the wheels often has a faster meter then the clicks when they go over the breaks in the tracks – that creates the same type of feel.

I don’t know if this is clear – or muddy as crap – but it’s the best explanation I can offer.

 

[famous beagle]

Beagle,

Since you asked me to explain what my analysis of my own playing revealed – I’ll try …. But trying to explain a feel of music is like an artist trying to explain a shade of green.
Let me start by saying I grew up on Motown, Stax and all the R& B of the 60’s. I did a lot of gigs as a white drummer in all black bands during the 60's & 70's – so I developed a solid feel for R&B grooves (both because I love the music and because I wouldn’t get the gigs if I couldn’t groove).

Over the years many players have told me they enjoyed working with me because I had such a good feel and laid down a pocket that felt good to play to (obviously, if the other players can’t feel the pocket – then nothing the drummer does is going to help the groove).

So, I started to payd attention to how I played, listened to many recordings and when sessions permitted, listed to the drums compared to the click (I wanted to make sure that I did not lose the feel - and in trun lose gigs)

What I found is the groove I set with the snare, kick and hat played around the meter, while still maintaining the tempo of the song. During verses the notes I play on the hat (normally a combination of ¼, 1/8 & 1/16 notes) tend to stay on meter of even push the meter a little (ahead of the beat). The kick notes (normally a combination of whole, ½, 1/4 and 1/8 notes) tend to follow the meter (anchoring the song) – but the snare (let’s say normally ½ notes with various ghost notes) tends to lag a little (behind the beat). The combination of all these notes supports the tempo (does not drag) – but does create a deep pocket. When songs head into a chorus or a guitar solo, etc. my snare notes tend to stay more precisely on the meter (or even a little ahead) and the hi hat notes also tend to push the meter a little – while the kick continues to stay steady to anchor the tempo. This adds a little energy to certain parts of the song – and then if it goes back to a verse, my snare and hat tend to settle back into the pocket.

If I could draw a diagram, it would look like an oval, rather than a symmetrically perfect circle. When you listen to a train on tracks (I enjoy train rides, heavy taken many trains and listen to the grooves) – the sound has a groove, but the sound of the wheels often has a faster meter then the clicks when they go over the breaks in the tracks – that creates the same type of feel.

I don’t know if this is clear – or muddy as crap – but it’s the best explanation I can offer.

No, this helps a lot, thanks. And it's mostly as I suspected: that some part of the kit is usually keeping pretty steady time (the hat or kick) while other parts tend to lay slightly back (like the snare). That's what I was thinking.

Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Rod Norman]

Question one means playing slightly after the beat. The bass guitar sometimes does this to stand out in the wash of instruments. It's often used on ballads. On fast song, flaying slight ahead of the beat is better.

Question two means playing the note five steps up in the scale for the chord. On a C chord, that would be the G. There is another use of this term meaning the five chord. That is the chord based on the fifth note in the scale of the key the song is written in. Some songs go, 1, 4, 5, or 1, 5, 4. In the key of C that would mean the G chord.
I hope this helps
NewYorkRod

Can somebody tell me what this means?

(1) Playing behind the beat.

Does this mean you are playing after the beat, or does it mean you are playing quieter than the main beat?

(2) Playing to a 5th. of a chord for bass.

Does this mean you are playing single notes of the chord being used in the main song, and if so what does the 5th. mean versus 4th. or 3rd?

thanks.

The video clip that caused the question(s).
Rock School Vol 3 - Part 5 of 8 - Reggae Bass & Guitar - YouTube

 

[Rod Norman]

After reading some replies, I thought this might help. I'm a drummer and an engineer. A lot of musicians mistake tempo for time. Tempo is the speed of the beat, time is the amount of space between beats. So the tempo might appear steady, but there might be slight variations between the beats (never good). The bass and the drums DO lock in together, but the bass might sound a little behind the beat on ballads since the bass drum is an impact dynamically and the bass is a stroke dynamically. The musicians are playing tight together, locked in, but the sound appears slightly behind the beat. Also I noticed some people referring to "behind" as just before the beat. On the project waveform track, the sound would appear to be behind if it were played before. But since most musicians ask for behind the beat in reference to playing after the beat, that's where the definition should remain. If the band leader or conductor were to ask someone to play behind the beat, it would mean slightly after the beat.

So, for drummers, you want each beat to be evenly distributed with the same amount of time between each beat. For those who either have drummer who don't do that or you try to change the tempos during the song, in the first case, get another drummer; in the second, the drummer is who YOU follow. You can slip and slide around all you want, but only the drummer is in control of the tempos and the time.
NewYorkRod

 

[gjohnsonintn]

LISTEN TO PRETTY MUCH ANYTHING STEWART COPELAND THE DRUMMER FOR THE POLICE HAS DONE. As a drummer I can tell you that playing behind the beat is solely the drummer ... the kick is still on time. The snare falls slightly behind the beat as does the hi-hat pattern. it creates that relaxed pocket feel. kinda slinky. Blues music is famous for it. Listen to some really good blues and you will hear it. I gather YOU are a bassist????? if that be the case.. LOCK IN ON THE KICK.... try to re create his kick pattern on your bass patterns. Your band will love you for it.. and the "Pocket" will be tight and solid. I hope this helps.

 

[gjohnsonintn]

Xdrummer

One of the best explanations i have ever heard!

Bravo!