Some Music theory 101 noob questions.

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jokerone

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Can somebody tell me what this means?

(1) Playing behind the beat.

Does this mean you are playing after the beat, or does it mean you are playing quieter than the main beat?

(2) Playing to a 5th. of a chord for bass.

Does this mean you are playing single notes of the chord being used in the main song, and if so what does the 5th. mean versus 4th. or 3rd?

thanks.

The video clip that caused the question(s).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-MA7tgqp10
 
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1) After the beat

2) 5th - the fifth interval from the root. Intervals are basic music theory - get a book or take some lessons.
For example, if E is the root note, the B above or below it is the 5th.
 
1. I think refers to hitting the note on bass a fraction of a second before the kick drum hits. Gives the bass and kick a little more separation in the mix.

2. Using the circle of fifths. If the guitar is playing a D chord then bass should (will naturally sound good) play an A note. If guitar is playing a C then bass might play a G. Check out the circle of fifths.
 
mjbphotos said:
1) After the beat

2) 5th - the fifth interval from the root. Intervals are basic music theory - get a book or take some lessons.
For example, if E is the root note, the B above or below it is the 5th.
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Got it. thanks.
 
panman79 said:
1. I think refers to hitting the note on bass a fraction of a second before the kick drum hits. Gives the bass and kick a little more separation in the mix.
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Never do this. It sounds like flub. Seperate the kick and bass with panning and EQ not timing.
 
Playing behind the beat would normally refer to the drummer's roll rather that bass guitar (or any other melodic instrument).

If the drummer plays "behind the beat" it gives the music a slightly more laid back "in the groove" feel. As far at the bass guitar (or other melodic instruments) - they should try to lock in with the drummer - letting the drums set the groove.

As has already been suggested - if the bass is playing to the 5th - it would normally mean the 5th step from the root. As an example, if a song is in the key of A major - when playing to the A chord the bass may build most of the bottom by alternating from the root (A) to the 5th (E) and then when the chord changes - let's say to D major, then the bass may alternate betwwen the root (D) to the 5th (A).
 
panman79 said:
hitting the note on bass a fraction of a second before the kick drum hits. Gives the bass and kick a little more separation in the mix.
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Manslick said:
Never do this. It sounds like flub. Seperate the kick and bass with panning and EQ not timing.
Click to expand...

Xdrummer said:
As far at the bass guitar (or other melodic instruments) - they should try to lock in with the drummer
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As a kind of side issue, what exactly do various people mean when they say "the bass should lock in" with the drummer ? Is this meant sonically or arrangement~wise ?
 
In my experience locking in with the drummer is aimed at the bass player. They have to be in sync timing wise. Sonics are just as important but timing trumps the sonic imo.

I can attest to audible flub when the kick and bass are off a fraction of a second. I am master at doing this. These two rhythmic elements are the foundation. Now if the song calls for a loose feel they can stray from the center of the beat but they have to be together. The rest can do whatever within limits.

It’s a hard concept to put in typing. But I think you know it when you hear it.
 
Manslick said:
In my experience locking in with the drummer is aimed at the bass player. They have to be in sync timing wise. Sonics are just as important but timing trumps the sonic imo.

I can attest to audible flub when the kick and bass are off a fraction of a second. I am master at doing this. These two rhythmic elements are the foundation. Now if the song calls for a loose feel they can stray from the center of the beat but they have to be together. The rest can do whatever within limits.

It’s a hard concept to put in typing. But I think you know it when you hear it.
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yes, amazing how much different something sounds just being off a 1/16 or so of a beat or even 1/32.
 
Playing behind the beat is done to create a relaxed feel. As opposed to in country music for example, where you play in front of the beat to create a feeling of urgency. This does not mean slowing or rushing the song, the tempo remains the same.

jokerone said:
yes, amazing how much different something sounds just being off a 1/16 or so of a beat or even 1/32.
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Note that playing behind-, or in front of the beat does not mean playing a 16th or 32nd note off. That would be called rhythm displacement. We're talking fractions of a second.
 
skuligisla said:
Playing behind the beat is done to create a relaxed feel. As opposed to in country music for example, where you play in front of the beat to create a feeling of urgency. This does not mean slowing or rushing the song, the tempo remains the same.

Note that playing behind-, or in front of the beat does not mean playing a 16th or 32nd note off. That would be called rhythm displacement. We're talking fractions of a second.
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I have a track with my mando' playing friend where I used a 3ms delay I think it was to pull him back into the pocket. So in this case the kind thing to say is he was 'pushing it --- but really, he was frickin' rushing LOL

True 'pushing -not futcking up'- would be Tony Rice taking off in a mBPM flat picking song that makes all the previous great solos feel like they were dragging! - Paying ahead of the groove ;)
 
OP, I have a difficult time understand the before / after the beat thing too... When I'm playing (guitarist) I can feel when a drummer is pushing the beat a bit though and it challenges me as a bit as a guitarist because the groove changes some. That may be what is being referred to.
 
smili said:
OP, I have a difficult time understand the before / after the beat thing too... .
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Me too. I think it's a myth that started when someone once tried to describe a certain urgency or feel of playing. I've been playing drums for over 30 years and I've never been told to, and have never tried to play "before" or "after" the beat. It makes no sense. You're the drummer. You set the tempo. If you're playing to a click, you try to play with the click, not before or after it. Even if you do manage to stay behind the click for a whole song. So what? The rest of the band comes in and plays to your track.

I think it's like someone thinking that a song slows down just because the drummer goes to half-time measures. It's the same speed, but it sounds slower because the snare is now playing on the 3 instead of the 2 and 4. So, someone who does'n't have a good musical vocabulary will say "it slows down". Same thing playing "behind" or "ahead of" the beat. It's not true and it doesn't exist.
 
RAMI said:
Me too. I think it's a myth that started when someone once tried to describe a certain urgency or feel of playing. I've been playing drums for over 30 years and I've never been told to, and have never tried to play "before" or "after" the beat. It makes no sense. You're the drummer. You set the tempo. If you're playing to a click, you try to play with the click, not before or after it. Even if you do manage to stay behind the click for a whole song. So what? The rest of the band comes in and plays to your track.

I think it's like someone thinking that a song slows down just because the drummer goes to half-time measures. It's the same speed, but it sounds slower because the snare is now playing on the 3 instead of the 2 and 4. So, someone who does'n't have a good musical vocabulary will say "it slows down". Same thing playing "behind" or "ahead of" the beat. It's not true and it doesn't exist.
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It is possible, though, to play the 1st & 3rd beat (kik) in time, then the snare a little (tiny bit) after the 2nd & 4th beats. Then this might give a lazy feel to the snare, but then the 1st kik of the next bar would sound early. Is this what people mean? In which case, the kik would actually sound more urgent. I'm not a drummer - just throwing an idea out there.
 
jonny deep said:
It is possible, though, to play the 1st & 3rd beat (kik) in time, then the snare a little (tiny bit) after the 2nd & 4th beats. Then this might give a lazy feel to the snare, but then the 1st kik of the next bar would sound early. Is this what people mean? In which case, the kik would actually sound more urgent. I'm not a drummer - just throwing an idea out there.
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No, yeah I know what you're saying. I obviously realize that you can have a "sloppy" or lazy feel on the snare at certain points during a song. Off the top of my head, "Some Girls" by the Stones is a lazy, dirty feeling song and a lot of that is the dragging of the drums from time to time. But that's deliberate sloppiness and isn't sustained all through the tune.
 
It’s not a myth it’s just a way musicians try to convey the idea of the feeling. I bet in different parts of the world there are as many ways to describe it as there are musicians. I’ve heard the term play behind the beat all my life. I’ve also heard play it loose or add some slop, relax it, get funky etc. etc. I remember starting out on guitar a guy told me to get funky. I was like..:wtf:

The whole band has to have that jell factor to pull it off and it takes a lot of playing together to be able to pull it off on queue. It’s hard for a one man band to pull it off playing to a metronome. I have done tunes that start out with the metronome and eventually I turn it off if I feel the groove wanting to get behind the beat or whatever you want to call it.

The only album I can recall right now that I could site as an example of beat manipulation is Graceland by Paul Simon. The grooves on that record are, I can’t even describe them. They sound great when listening but try to play along to that disk sometime. I find some of the tunes very unnatural to play but they sound fine in the chair with a beer.:drunk:

Nice question joker1. :cool:
 
Manslick said:
it’s just a way musicians try to convey the idea of the feeling.
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Right. That's exactly what I said. But nobody's actually playing behind a beat. Turning off a metronome doesn't mean you're playing "behind the beat". It just means you're establishing the groove/tempo yourself, and the band still has to play with you.

I’ve also heard play it loose or add some slop, relax it, get funk
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I said that too. But, as a drummer, you're still not playing the whole track behind or ahead of anything. You might slightly slow down on a roll or have the occasional snare hit come slightly late, but that's not the same as playing ahead or behind anything.

Like we both said, it doesn't mean what it seems to imply.
 
Interesting. I would think it would be kind of intuitive, something you'd sort of pick up after playing a while that the pace can (normally would be) rock solid while some parts can be playing around that.
Too far out, or if someone's pushing ahead then having to drag it to get back, it'd just be said to be sloppy.

From 'Crossfire Hurricane Bill Wyman explains the Rolling Stones "wobble"

"Something happens when we play together. It's impossible to copy. Every band follows the drummer. We don't follow Charlie. Charlie follows Keith. So the drums are very slightly behind Keith. It's only fractional. Seconds. Minuscule. And I tend to play ahead. It's got a sort of wobble. It's dangerous because it can fall apart at any minute."

I remembered the 'Charlie follows Kieth' thing but totally forgot him saying he played ahead of it :D

Now I get a kick sometimes trying evoke a bit of the Kieth' on guitar :p -not sure what, but it feels to me like pulling back behind the drums. Maybe an anticipate' on the one', back behind later in the measure..? IDK (..and not that I'd ever imagine, expect -or want the drums to follow that though! :facepalm:
 
Here you go. Classic example that reeks off this stuff. Happens right from the git go '2nd inst in. And check the bridge -almost to that point of.. " um, maybe we should'of done one again for a safety guys' ..?
:D

Rolling Stones - Doncha Bother Me - YouTube

Sorry couldn't find the mono ver :(
 
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