Recording saxophone - tips please !

[Davesax1965]

Hi folks - can anyone give me any advice about recording sax ?

After 37 years of playing, I've done some collaborative work over the net with a couple of bands - not happy with the results so far !

Current set up is with a Yamaha clip on condenser mike going through an ST5 portastudio. I'm going to change to a MXL 990 mike going into an ART Studio v3 preamp in a while. And I'm going to also going to do some sound proofing and conditioning - at the moment, tons of splash mean that I can really only record wet, with tons of effects masking the bad recording.

Any advice gratefully accepted ! I'd post a link but can't do so until I've got ten posts in. Try Soundcloud and Davesax1965 for some examples of the current mess... ;-)

Cheers
Dave

 

[Steenamaroo]

Hi there,

There are two main ways you can record any kind of horn.

Either you get up nice and close to the instrument, more often than not with a dynamic mic,
or you get a little further back, usually with a condenser.

The toss up is that close up will minimise bleed from other instruments and room ambience, but it may not sound natural to you.
Mic position can be critical.

Micing further back will capture a more natural representation of the instrument, but will also capture room ambience and whatever else is happening in the room. Position is still critical, but it's probably fair to say less critical.

Maybe I'm stating the obvious, but which of those roads would you rather go down?


For arguments sake, even if you record in an anechoic chamber, the further back recording is still going to sound more natural, just because of the way sounds develop.

 

[elbandito]

I used a Royer 121 ribbon on this recording: "You Need A Man" - Thunderfunk

And a Studio Projects CS5 LDC on this one: "Get Funky"

Both sounded pretty good, imo. The choice of mic used was based on the overall sound that I wanted the tracks to have. In the first song there, I was looking for a smooth, early 70's vibe (ribbons all the way) and on the second one, we were very drunk and I wanted a crisper kinda sax tone (LDC).

You could also consider a dynamic mic like a SM57, or an RE20. That would help to minimize the problem of room treatment for the moment but that, of course, is something that should be remedied asap.

 

[Greg_L]

I've only recorded a sax a couple of times. For me, I wanted the tight punchy bark of the sax sounding raunchy, so a 57 near the sax's butthole did the trick. For a smoother sound, I'd imagine a LDC out in a good sounding room would be better.

 

[aaronmcoleman]

Lt Bob should be able to help with this.

 

[Lt. Bob]

well ..... I wouldn't get that 990 for starters .... it's a bit harsh and the top end isn't that smooth ... at least that's how mine sounds.

My go-to mic for my sax is my MXL V67g ..... but I sometimes use my old Rode NT1.

Some of it'll have to do with whatever mthpce and reeds you use.
I use a metal mthpce (Santy Runyon Spoiler ) with a very open lay (13* ) and Rico Plasticover #5 usually. #4's if I've been doing a lot of guitar work and less sax on my gigs. That's a pretty bright, loud combination.

I NEVER put the mic right up the bell. The sound of a sax comes from all over the body and all the soundholes. So you want to be 1 to 3 feet back from the sax about midway up the body.
If you put the mic in the bell then you have major volume fluctuations when you go from low notes where all the pads are closed sending most sound thru the bell to middle or higher registers where a LOT of the sound comes out of the soundholes.

I also frequently cut the highs when tracking by 3 to 6 db because while saxes are bright .... the nice part of a sax's sound is the midrange where it has most of it's body and fullness. I know a lotta guys think any EQ while tracking is heresy but often with a sax, if you don't, it's hard to get it tamed in the mix.

 

[Davesax1965]

13* - Lord above !!!!!!! Bob, you must have jaws like a hammerhead shark ! ;-)

Thanks very much folks, really appreciated ! Food for thought here, better get some more session work done if I'm saving for a better mike.

Really appreciate all your responses, thanks very much indeed ! ;-)

Cheers
Dave

 

[John Willett]

I NEVER put the mic right up the bell. The sound of a sax comes from all over the body and all the soundholes. So you want to be 1 to 3 feet back from the sax about midway up the body.
If you put the mic in the bell then you have major volume fluctuations when you go from low notes where all the pads are closed sending most sound thru the bell to middle or higher registers where a LOT of the sound comes out of the soundholes.

I thought it was the opposite.

The Sax radiates at right-angles from the body at low frequencies - only the high frequencies come straight out of the bell.

So - you need to position the microphone so that it picks up both from the body and from the bell.

Brass and woodwind tend to radiate in a similar manner where the low notes are radiated more from the body and the higher notes come out the end.

 

[PRHunt]

I also frequently cut the highs when tracking by 3 to 6 db because while saxes are bright .... the nice part of a sax's sound is the midrange where it has most of it's body and fullness. I know a lotta guys think any EQ while tracking is heresy but often with a sax, if you don't, it's hard to get it tamed in the mix.

Do you need to do this with the V67G?

 

[Greg_L]

I NEVER put the mic right up the bell. The sound of a sax comes from all over the body and all the soundholes. So you want to be 1 to 3 feet back from the sax about midway up the body.
If you put the mic in the bell then you have major volume fluctuations when you go from low notes where all the pads are closed sending most sound thru the bell to middle or higher registers where a LOT of the sound comes out of the soundholes.

I also frequently cut the highs when tracking by 3 to 6 db because while saxes are bright .... the nice part of a sax's sound is the midrange where it has most of it's body and fullness. I know a lotta guys think any EQ while tracking is heresy but often with a sax, if you don't, it's hard to get it tamed in the mix.

That's interesting. I did notice when tracking my wife's sax that it was really bright and I had to cut the highs with EQ - no matter which mic I used. Even the lowest "brown note" was searingly bright. The tone was there, but there was a lot of rasp in the highs. That shit was almost like a kazoo.

 

[gecko zzed]

I've posted this before, but I'll post it again.

https://www.box.com/shared/ggi08h0122

A 60 second sample; sax recorded with the lowly Behringer C2, about 500mm away, and vaguely aimed at the sax

 

[Lt. Bob]

13* - Lord above !!!!!!! Bob, you must have jaws like a hammerhead shark ! ;-)

just a LOT of years playing 5 and 6 nights a week.
Plus I've usually played with guitar bands rather than horn sections so I've always been after volume.

As for the EQ'ing ...... I record thru an analog board so it's easy for me to tweak the EQ while tracking.
Yes, I almost always cut the highs a bit while tracking regardless of mic to tame the top end.

For gigs I might cut it even more ...... I tell soundmen to set the tone the same as they set a typical vocal channel on their board and then cut the highs 9-12db.
If the sax doesn't cut thru just turn it up.
I hate a bright cutting sax sound that's all bite with no body to it.

John ...... about halfway up the body will pick up the bell and is, in fact, about even with the top of the bell.
I've recorded sax a lot since it's one of my primary instruments.
Higher notes (I'm not talking freqs here ...... I'm talking pitches) escape the sax before reaching the bell while lower notes start to make it further down the tube and when you hit a low B or Bb virtually everything comes out the bell and you get a major volume jump.
Exactly where you want the mic can vary a lot from individual to individual but my tendency has solidified to using a LDC right around 3 feet from my horn ...... at about the level of the top of the bell ot a little higher and like gekko said ...... vaguely pointed towards the sax ..... definitely aimed to pick up the whole sax rather than aiming it at the bell like I often see done when people haven't recorded a lot of sax.

 

[gecko zzed]

vaguely pointed towards the sax ..... definitely aimed to pick up the whole sax rather than aiming it at the bell

Yup. Aiming at the bell sounds logical, but I find the some sax players move around a lot when they get excited, so trying to get close is like trying to close-mike a fly. Setting a mike a bit further away and in the general direction of the instrument helps keep the sound under control, and you get the full instrument.

 

[John Willett]

You *have* to record the body of the sax. as well as the bell!

 

[Lt. Bob]

You *have* to record the body of the sax. as well as the bell!

View attachment 75612

which is what I said.

 

[Backyard Record]

I have found space and mic positioning key to recording sax. Your best bet would be to NOT use a clip on but try even a basic SM57 and find a what distance and space from the mic works best for the tone. I am not sure why but horns are different in EVERY room i have worked in and often are difficult to get 'just right'. Not much of a tip but i find it is more the space and distance rather than the JUST the mic or pre's. All the best

 

[bigdaddysun]

I love the ART stuff. the MXL 990 is a dog of a mike. Very thin and tinny. A better choice would be an Audio Technica 4040. You can pick them up pretty cheap used on Ebay. here some sax done with vintage expensive gear and an awesome player, Ron Dewar. This was recorded in 1984 at Seagrape Studion in Chicago using an RCA ribbon mic from the early 50's.
kalparecording.com / sounds / DogIt-saxclip.mp3


. a MXL 990[/URL] mike going into an ART Studio v3 preamp in a while. And I'm going to also going to do some sound proofing and conditioning - at the moment, tons of splash mean that I can really only record wet, with tons of effects masking the bad recording.

Any advice gratefully accepted ! I'd post a link but can't do so until I've got ten posts in. Try Soundcloud and Davesax1965 for some examples of the current mess... ;-)

Cheers
Dave[/QUOTE]

 

[Greg_L]

Best sax ever. I had no idea these existed, and I want one.

 

[RAMI]

Ha! Never seen one of those either. That's probably why I can't tell if this guy is totally awesome or if he totally sucks.

 

[Lt. Bob]

I've only seen one of those once before at Disney world a long long time ago.
They're pretty rare ......... and cool.