Mixing and -DB

[jaynm26]

Farview the book was published in 2006! dBFS has not changed and it never will First you refuted gain staging now your trying to say you support it I have not misunderstood you changed arguments.

 

[jaynm26]

You said, to my statement of gain staging!

Mixes just have to be peaking under 0dbfs. The only time you really have to worry about level is when you are recording (keep the levels averaging around -18dbfs while keeping the peaks below 0dbfs). Any other time, you just have to make sure it is below 0dbfs and you will be fine.

Refuting my statement of the need to use PROPER GAIN STAGING TECHNIQUE to model the analog world. Which I felt IMHO you were wrong about. Do you remember?

You are missing my point. the only time the average level is relevant is in the analog world. Once inside the box, the only thing that matters is not clipping.

Again refuting my statement against proper gain staging!

Then the mighty smart GONZO made this statement...

you will find, with time....
that bringing tracks into your daw, that are peaking much higher than about -10db, will eventually create a bit of a 'harsh' sound in the collective..

again, it goes back to proper gain staging.

GONZO supporting my statement of the need to use proper gain staging AGAINST your refute.

And then you made this god awful statement

The harshness from running your levels too hot happens on the analog side, not the digital side.

Which quite frankly I dont even know why I responded to this one!! I had to misunderstand you.

Right here is where you CHANGED your argument from "No need to Gain stage" to, "Oh yeah I been doin that for 30 years."

But just one more thing about your advice that the mix should be averaging about -18dbfs rms (I agree with that) and peaking at -10dbfs. Most commercial CDs...

How could you agree with me and then disagree lol, I know your not talkin about overall mix cuz we just discussed that as out right stupid. So your talkin about individual tracks as am I. So then you agree with GAIN STAGING YOUR TRACKS

The argument should have stopped there we both agree. But off topic about exp, ext? I never degrade or disrespect exp jus so you know. I highly respect it no need to preach to me bout it. ( Is it just me but when people THINK they have to go on defense about a practice or technique they immediately start throwing out years of EXP!) I dont know just baffles me. If you just said I dont do all that lil tedious gain staging shit I been mixng for 30 years and aint had no complaints yet. Damn all them screwy little details. If a mix sounds good! Shit it sounds good! Damn all that other hog wash! Like a statement Mo Facto would make lol. I would have have just respected your years exp and shut the fuck up lol (i would have to I havent been mixing for 30 years hell I havent even lived that long lol)

Before that statement you went on bout record level, and peak vs rms, and crest, and brought out some digest. Then it went from that to CD mastering level? ALL FAAAARRRR from the point of the argument ...Again all off topic completeley

Then it went to these frivolous statement taking position against PROS who are GAIN STAGING both analog and digital

What year was this interview? In the early days of digital (up to the late 90's) most converters were calibrated to line level = -10dbfs or -12dbfs, depending on the converters. You had to deal with things much differently back then. In fact, back then, the big problem was not being able to run the preamps hot enough.

+3vu is -15dbfs rms, however the peaks will be much higher, so this is irrelevent.

Maybe your just corralling for support and Im still "misunderstanding". The book was published in 2006 well before 1999 so whats your argument now???. Gain staging IS GAIN STAGING. Do you know these are not "project studio" junkies Farview? These are Grammy Award winning pro's who are gain staging. I urge you to look them up since my word isnt good enough. Eng who have exp jus like you I think their exp should be respected jus like yours.
Is this argument more than just bout information to you??? Or is it more bout just being right???

Now I bring in "up to date" evidence of pro's gain staging and your willing to refute that, REALY!!! This is sad. I dont care if a rolling stones Eng poured lighter fluid on a SSL and lit it on fire cause he said he made the mix warm (extreme case but you get the parrel im drawing from this demonstration) and everyone thought it was just the worst idea on the planet and never tried it for knowldge and student purposes Im am at least gonna try it before I criticize. Be like guys, "i tried it didn't work anyone lone me 80 grand." I believe that is called wisdom. Being right all the time is not a good thing Im wrong ALOT! Thats how I learn. Humility is tough sometime even for a 30 yr old vet?

GAIN STAGING, IS GAIN STAGING, IS GAIN STAGING 1950 to the end of time its sound and you have to manage it. I rest my case

 

[Dogbreath]

wow.

a perfectly good thread has been turned into a "my dick is bigger than yours" thread.

nice.

 

[Farview]

You are going in way too many different directions at once and applying statements pertaining to itb mixing to recording level and vice versa.

Let's focus. The OP's question was about mixing and what level the mix should be at. My statements about analog style gain staging not being necessary itb are still true. Almost all daws us floating point math in the summing buss, which gives a virtual headroom of around 1500db over the digital noise floor. In that situation, the only time going over 0dbfs creates distortion is when it's fed out of the converters, because the converters have to resolve to 24 bits fixed point. ITB, there is no distortion at that high level. Because of that, you can simply turn down the master buss to keep the mix from clipping the converters.

No, it isn't a best practice, but all of that distortion is at the converter, not in the DAW. So, if the internal levels can far exceed 0dbfs without distorting, certainly mixbuss levels aproaching, but below, 0db will be distortion free.

There are obvious exceptions to this:
1. you have a fixed point mix buss. In this situation, you only have a fixed set of bits to work with, if you run out everything goes to hell.
2. you are using hardware emulation plugins that are designed to distort and do the same thing an analog piece of gear would if you pushed the levels to it. That isn't because it's distorting digitally, it's because that is a feature of the plugin that it emulates the way the analog counterpart would react.

Your points about gain staging and the recording chain are spot on and I agree with them, how ever I get the impression that you think the harshness of high levels comes from the digital side of things, when it is really the analog side of things getting wheezy at those levels.

 

[jaynm26]

Farview you know that clipping is a form of distortion I KNOW YOU KNOW THAT! You have 30 years of exp!

Last time last response first were are going to define clipping.

Wiki Audio
Clipping - Clipping is a form of distortion that limits a signal once it exceeds a threshold. Clipping may occur when a signal is recorded by a sensor that has constraints on the range of data it can measure, it can occur when a signal is digitized, or it can occur any other time an analog or digital signal is transformed, particularly in the presence of gain or overshoot and undershoot.

So thats done never to go back! Clipping IS distoration! Ok now next point you said,

Almost all daws us floating point math in the summing buss, which gives a virtual headroom of around 1500db over the digital noise floor.

I agree, partly. All im going to say

Next point

Because of that, you can simply turn down the master buss to keep the mix from clipping the converters In that situation, the only time going over 0dbfs creates distortion is when it's fed out of the converters, because the converters have to resolve to 24 bits fixed point. ITB, there is no distortion at that high level.

Again my statement based on definition is that distortion can happen ITB. How? cause we defined clipping.

Because of that, you can simply turn down the master buss to keep the mix from clipping the converters

My response to this arguments true for signal routing to the converters false for digital distortion. That signal is not clipping going from master mix in the DAW to the converter but it does have a distorted signal "IN" the audio signal. This point goes along with my definition of clipping and digital distortion you claimed did not exists.

Mike Senior Arthor of Mixing Secerets states, " However, when you have a digital signal that is clipping, it is being permanently and irreparably distorted and damaged. We're no longer making a perfect copy of the signal we're trying to reproduce, we're distorting it in a very unpleasing way. Even if you turn down the Master Fader the clipped distorted sound is still apart of the audio signal it self. It will go away on the master but the track that is clipping is sending a clipped distorted signal to the Master fader. Just imagine every track was at 0 then you would have all distortion and unwanted sound going to you Master fader. So as a general rule of thumb, you NEVER want to see clipping in a digital system. That includes not only your software, but also your soundcard. and converters. So, clipping is bad, we all understand that, right?"

Your argument continues

you are using hardware emulation plugins that are designed to distort and do the same thing an analog piece of gear would if you pushed the levels to it. That isn't because it's distorting digitally, it's because that is a feature of the plugin that it emulates the way the analog counterpart would react.

My first statement of defining clipping refutes this entire statement. Clipping is distortion and should be ignored at all cost. Both Digital & Analog. Yes even analog modeled plugins. Why? casue of my defining what clipping is.

Next

Your points about gain staging and the recording chain are spot on and I agree with them, how ever I get the impression that you think the harshness of high levels comes from the digital side of things, when it is really the analog side of things getting wheezy at those levels.

Thank you sir I appreciate it. I am in agreement with gain staging as you are and I do get the impression that harshness and distortion exists in the digital domain based on definition and definition alone. I also agree things get wheezy at the analog distortion level. Things get harsh and brittle at the "digital" distortion level. Although we did not come to a complete agreement I am glad to see we came to an agreement about the importance of GAIN STAGING. We wouldn't want to be mis leading these young sheep who are reading our every word! Have a great and blessed day Farview.

Great post & saying from a gentlemen today, If you want IYB to sound OTB you have use OTB techniques (I know i just baggered that lol, it was no way the way he wrote when I saw it but nevertheless you get my point lol)

 

[Bobbsy]

Mike Senior Arthor of Mixing Secerets states, " However, when you have a digital signal that is clipping, it is being permanently and irreparably distorted and damaged. We're no longer making a perfect copy of the signal we're trying to reproduce, we're distorting it in a very unpleasing way. Even if you turn down the Master Fader the clipped distorted sound is still apart of the audio signal it self. It will go away on the master but the track that is clipping is sending a clipped distorted signal to the Master fader. Just imagine every track was at 0 then you would have all distortion and unwanted sound going to you Master fader. So as a general rule of thumb, you NEVER want to see clipping in a digital system. That includes not only your software, but also your soundcard. and converters. So, clipping is bad, we all understand that, right?"

I really, REALLY tried to stay out of this, but the above quote is not quite what it seems.

First off, he really should say "digital file" rather than "digital signal". The damage is NOT permanent until the clipped signal is saved that way. If you notice the clipping while working and turn down the master, there's no permanent damage even in an integer based system. Indeed, if you use "Save As" rather than overwriting any original files, I'd argue that, even then the damage isn't permanent.

However, any of this only really applies to integer based mixing. With 32 bit floating point systems (which I've been using for more than a decade) there's no problem at all as long as I stay with floating point maths. The traditionalist in me still feels guilty about letting a mix get anywhere near clipping but the reality is that, with modern FP mixing, you can be completely sloppy with your levels and fix it by pulling down the master fader or normalising downwards.

A final comment: I don't think the two of you are that far apart; you're just arguing from opposite sides of a Venn diagram with only a slight overlap in the middle. ITB is a different world from analogue and you have to be careful with gain staging in the cross over.

 

[jaynm26]

Bobby your wayyyy off. We are not discussing save file or permanent we all know everything can be redone. we are saying once you print the mix with digital clipping its permeant yea save file/ session all that jazz its clipping thas the point. its about digital clipping and distortion in the digital domain thas the argument.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Bobby your wayyyy off. We are not discussing save file or permanent we all know everything can be redone. we are saying once you print the mix with digital clipping its permeant yea save file/ session all that jazz its clipping thas the point. its about digital clipping and distortion in the digital domain thas the argument.

I do believe you're wrong about this particular point. With floating point math you can have an "over" at one stage, lower the gain later and end up with a clean signal. Only with processing specifically designed to change behavior according to absolute levels (and perhaps the odd badly designed plugin) will you have distortion that remains after gain is lowered at a later point. You can clip the converters but it's pretty near impossible to clip the processing unless clipping was written into the algorithm.

 

[Bobbsy]

Bobby your wayyyy off. We are not discussing save file or permanent we all know everything can be redone. we are saying once you print the mix with digital clipping its permeant yea save file/ session all that jazz its clipping thas the point. its about digital clipping and distortion in the digital domain thas the argument.

I wonder if part of the problem is the use of imprecise language. What do you mean by "print the mix"? Save it to your hard drive? Burn it to CD? Produce a glass master for CD duplication?

As Bouldersoundguy confirms, as long as you stay "in the box" with 32 bit floating point processing, you can get away with a lot of things you couldn't do in the analogue world and not cause any permanent clipping/distortion. Yeah, if you clip a 16 bit integer file, save it and burn the file to CD that's permanent. No argument. But during the mix/mix down process at 32 bit floating point you can go miles over, bring it down and your files will be perfect again.

 

[Mo Facta]

God, there's so much misinformation in this thread now it's far gone.

Cheers

 

[Farview]

Bobby your wayyyy off. We are not discussing save file or permanent we all know everything can be redone. we are saying once you print the mix with digital clipping its permeant yea save file/ session all that jazz its clipping thas the point. its about digital clipping and distortion in the digital domain thas the argument.

The clipping doesn't happen in the mixing process, it happens when the signal gets resolved to a fixed bit depth. There is no clipping in a floating point mix buss. The clipping only occurs at the converters or during the bounce (unless you bounce to a 32 bit float file). Even then, you can just turn down the master buss and fix the problem. (the preceding statement only pertains to mixing in a floating point environment)

In a recording situation, obviously you can clip the converters on the way in and that damage is permanent, because you have recorded a clipped signal. The signal clipped at the point of being converted and never existed in digital form unclippe. That is what your lastbook quote was talking about.

 

[jaynm26]

I agree with everyone

 

[Bobbsy]

If the clipped signal is recorded that way, you're right jaynm26.

However, if it's not clipped at the time of recording and you're working in a 32 bit FP environment, then you can push it into what should be clipping--I mean a LONG way into what should be clipping--then just pull it down later and the signal will be clean as a bell. The dynamic range in a 32 bit floating point system is something like 1680dB. That's so much it's hard to get your head round--but it means that..ITB...a few dB over 0dBFS is nothing and certainly not automatic clipping or distortion.

Yes, you have to be aware of gain staging in and out of your DAW. That's a given. I'm prepared to believe that you also have to be aware of gain staging with certain plug ins that emulate analogue effects.

But your simplistic view that anything even approaching 0dBFS is an automatic hand wringing disaster is just plain wrong.

That's not word twisting. That's a technical fact

 

[jaynm26]

No hard feelings Farview I hope...Lets move on to something else less debatable. Hey can taylor swift sing? or jus should her recording & mix eng be awarded a grammy every time she drops an album?

 

[Farview]

No hard feelings Farview I hope...Lets move on to something else less debatable.

No hard feelings, there's nothing to debate. It's very well known how floating point math works, now you know too.

 

[jaynm26]

No hard feelings, there's nothing to debate. It's very well known how floating point math works, now you know too.

I did know of the 32 bit floating member I said I agree. lol Im glad this is over lol

 

[protoolsitb]

I try keep at least 6 db of headroom.

 

[Bobbsy]

Got mixed up (hey! I'm old!) and thought I was replying to a different thread with a similar theme. I'll delete what I just said since it doesn't add much to this topic.

 

[Dogbreath]

It's very well known how floating point math works

well......maybe not VERY well known.

 

[jaynm26]

32 Bit Floating is not very well known or talked about but those (like us) who are audiophiles we "PAY ATTENTION TO DETAIL". Im pretty sure bobbsy, farview and my self take the "mixing approach" when it comes to "minute" knowledge of audio details. May not mean a whole lot but all the little bits of knowledge that is applied here and there add up to mean a huge world of difference.

A little may not go a long away but alot can come from very little.