JimmyS1969
MOODerator
Maybe. I gotta say man, I have thrown away tons of cash in my years playing in metal bands. No purchase of anything cheap has given me the results I wanted. Nothing in the world of electronics can fix a performance. Enhance, yes/maybe. The best musicians do not need to use compression on the way into a PA. This is only a compensation for control.
It seems to me you should be more concerned with hearing yourself. This is a PA/monitoring issue, not something that you need a processor or effect for. If you can hear yourself, you will have no need to scream, thus making the compressor obsolete. Well, until you are recording. These are two completely different situations.
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Wolfchild
New member
I know hearing myself is the key, but I never got decent monitors and was hard to avoid the urge to sing louder until screaming (and harmimg my chords) so that I could hear myself. When I was learning to control the urge a bit, the band, hmm, disbanded lol
JimmyS1969
MOODerator
Yeah, that is nothing new. Not sure I can count the bands I have been in.
My best advice would be to get an interface, and figure out what you do well, and go from there. There is nothing more important that what you do yourself.
Then, buy the biggest and loudest PA you can afford for rehearsing with a band. You cant turn down a drummer, and guitar players are one step behind them.
My best advice would be to get an interface, and figure out what you do well, and go from there. There is nothing more important that what you do yourself.
Then, buy the biggest and loudest PA you can afford for rehearsing with a band. You cant turn down a drummer, and guitar players are one step behind them.
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Wolfchild
New member
Eheh so true!
For the time being I'll stick with MIDI songwriting/ VST processing and adding vocals. Then time will tell. I've played in a few metal bands, bass guitar, and sang in one (the one which lasted the longer/ played live the most
) Now I'm heading towards some alternative/ progressive rock music. If I manage to get the time and the will to form or join a band in the future I'll consider rehearsing/ live equipment. Or if my previous band decides to reunite lol. But setting up a band of people who can actually sit down and write songs has been a pain on most occasions lol.
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Pahtcub
New member
If you are having trouble hearing yourself then your PA is no where near the level of needing a compressor on the output, and if that's the case then you have is no way of putting the compressor insert to FOH only so you will be compressing your monitor signal as well and that makes feedback a million times more likely. At your stage I'd suggest strongly against any compressor anywhere in your live setup and usually do for any band that runs their own sound as you will not be able to check FOH easily or settings on compressor if you are not running the entire band through your PA then you don't need to compress the vocals, trust me.
ido1957
9K Gold Member
I've been singing for years in bands and we've never used a compressor on vocals. They screw with your voice and make you sing even harder than without one. I end up straining when I sing through a compressor. FOH can do what they like but never in my monitors. Good board, separate eq, big power amp and 15 + horns for monitors. You gotta be louder than the drums.
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Pahtcub
New member
You don't need 15s for monitors just make sure it's well powered 12s work just fine but don't go below. You aren't putting bass through foldback or guitars at that level.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
A bit of technical background. In the sound biz there are two main standard "levels": microphone level and line level. Microphone level is self explanatory--basically the volume that comes directly off a mic. Mic level is extremely low...measured in thousandths of a volt.
Line level is an arbitrary standard that is used to feed sound inside mains powered gear (or between mains powered boxes--for example, the feed from a mixer to an amp is line level). There's lots of detail I won't bore you with but suffice to say line level is up near 1 volt give or take a bit.
To use microphones on powered devices, the mic level signal must first go through a mic pre amp--but they're often hidden in other bits of gear. The mic input on a laptop goes into a really cheap, low quality pre amp. The mic input on a mixer has, as it's first stage, a pre amp--an so on.
So, no, a pre amp won't allow you to sing more quietly since you're almost certainly using a built in one already without knowing it. Whether an external one improves the sound quality depends on what you're using--but don't expect miracles with an economy pre amp.
So, for your options.
The standard 1/8th inch mic input on a computer is really noisy and low quality..it's made for Skyping, not recording music. Discount that idea.
In line mic to USB adaptors are slightly better but, with one or two exceptions, are still pretty poor quality. Also, they're one way devices and you need to think about a monitoring output. By the way, whoever told you the voltage present on USB is bad for sound is talking through his hat. There's not problem at all in any properly designed device--some truly great recordings have been done on USB interfaces.
If it was me, I'd go for a basic USB interface with at least one mic in AND "direct hardware monitoring" to allow you to hear your music while recording vocals with minimum latency. Something like THIS would do what you want within your budget.
However, since you mention MIDI, do you think you might want to have an interface that can accept MIDI from a keyboard, now or in the future? If so, that opens a different can of worms!
Line level is an arbitrary standard that is used to feed sound inside mains powered gear (or between mains powered boxes--for example, the feed from a mixer to an amp is line level). There's lots of detail I won't bore you with but suffice to say line level is up near 1 volt give or take a bit.
To use microphones on powered devices, the mic level signal must first go through a mic pre amp--but they're often hidden in other bits of gear. The mic input on a laptop goes into a really cheap, low quality pre amp. The mic input on a mixer has, as it's first stage, a pre amp--an so on.
So, no, a pre amp won't allow you to sing more quietly since you're almost certainly using a built in one already without knowing it. Whether an external one improves the sound quality depends on what you're using--but don't expect miracles with an economy pre amp.
So, for your options.
The standard 1/8th inch mic input on a computer is really noisy and low quality..it's made for Skyping, not recording music. Discount that idea.
In line mic to USB adaptors are slightly better but, with one or two exceptions, are still pretty poor quality. Also, they're one way devices and you need to think about a monitoring output. By the way, whoever told you the voltage present on USB is bad for sound is talking through his hat. There's not problem at all in any properly designed device--some truly great recordings have been done on USB interfaces.
If it was me, I'd go for a basic USB interface with at least one mic in AND "direct hardware monitoring" to allow you to hear your music while recording vocals with minimum latency. Something like THIS would do what you want within your budget.
However, since you mention MIDI, do you think you might want to have an interface that can accept MIDI from a keyboard, now or in the future? If so, that opens a different can of worms!
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Wolfchild
New member
Thank you all for your insight and suggestions
If I get this straight, my original possibility, ART Tube MP Project Series USB - Thomann UK Cyberstore, actually is an USB interface as well a preamp... and all USB interfaces will include a preamp, right?
So maybe it is about the sound quality in the end... well and the fact that it will not help me in what I initially wondered if it would (boost vocals in live performances)... from what I've read/ videos I've watched from the ART unit, it has decent quality, adds warmth to vocals, but produces some undesired noice too (due to the low quality of the bundled tube). Also a tube preamp will also have the disadvantage of needing extra care in plugging/ unplugging and needs to warm up in order for the tube to make effect.
M-Audio's Fast Track USB seems to be what I need for home recording, in a lower budget. I wonder if I'll get a decent sound quality out of it. Anyone tried it yet?
The suggested Tascam US200 seems to be a great unit, but goes over my expected budget. Unless it will make a huge difference, I'll go for a cheaper equipment.
I'm not expecting pro quality of these products, I am just trying to get a decent sound out of this. Recording at home, with little or no acoustic treatment, over midi sampled instrument tracks, I surely do not expect to create something that only a real band in a professional studio could create lol
Are there any other low budget USB interfaces someone here has used and would recommend?
Also, regarding the live volume issue, I gather that, if I can't sing louder (project my voice more using trained techniques that is) or/ and get a better PA, there is no piece of in between equipment (preamp/ compressor/ whatever) that will actually help, is that it?
If I get this straight, my original possibility, ART Tube MP Project Series USB - Thomann UK Cyberstore, actually is an USB interface as well a preamp... and all USB interfaces will include a preamp, right?
So maybe it is about the sound quality in the end... well and the fact that it will not help me in what I initially wondered if it would (boost vocals in live performances)... from what I've read/ videos I've watched from the ART unit, it has decent quality, adds warmth to vocals, but produces some undesired noice too (due to the low quality of the bundled tube). Also a tube preamp will also have the disadvantage of needing extra care in plugging/ unplugging and needs to warm up in order for the tube to make effect.
M-Audio's Fast Track USB seems to be what I need for home recording, in a lower budget. I wonder if I'll get a decent sound quality out of it. Anyone tried it yet?
The suggested Tascam US200 seems to be a great unit, but goes over my expected budget. Unless it will make a huge difference, I'll go for a cheaper equipment.
I'm not expecting pro quality of these products, I am just trying to get a decent sound out of this. Recording at home, with little or no acoustic treatment, over midi sampled instrument tracks, I surely do not expect to create something that only a real band in a professional studio could create lol
Are there any other low budget USB interfaces someone here has used and would recommend?
Also, regarding the live volume issue, I gather that, if I can't sing louder (project my voice more using trained techniques that is) or/ and get a better PA, there is no piece of in between equipment (preamp/ compressor/ whatever) that will actually help, is that it?
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Wolfchild
New member
@bobbsy, I do not expect tu use a midi intrument in the future. I will probably stick to writing music on GP, and then sample the resulting MIDI files, so an interface without midi ports should do fine 
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ecc83
Well-known member
Audio Interface, yes. This is the only satisfactory way to go.
I suggest that you look for a second hand M-Audio Fast track pro. Thes are so well made and reliable that you are very unlikely to get a duff one and although it might be missing some or all of the bundled software it was a pretty useless bundle anyway! Everthing you need, which is basically Win 7 drivers (64 bits?) and the handbook you can download from M's.
Beware of other S/H AI's. Some do not play well with Win7, e.g. the otherwise excellent Emu 0404 usb2.0.
You have an SM57? These are amongst the lowest sensitivity mics around (the rather nice SM7b is even lower!) and the consequence of this is that the "tracks" you record will not look very loud. Fear not, the Pro's pre amps might be low gain but they are pretty quiet so you can lift the signals "digitally" without adding noise.
Re the PA problem: The baseline loudness MUST be set by the feedback limit of the PA in any particular venue. If the rest of the band do not recognise this fact then they ain't proper musicians!
Dave.
I suggest that you look for a second hand M-Audio Fast track pro. Thes are so well made and reliable that you are very unlikely to get a duff one and although it might be missing some or all of the bundled software it was a pretty useless bundle anyway! Everthing you need, which is basically Win 7 drivers (64 bits?) and the handbook you can download from M's.
Beware of other S/H AI's. Some do not play well with Win7, e.g. the otherwise excellent Emu 0404 usb2.0.
You have an SM57? These are amongst the lowest sensitivity mics around (the rather nice SM7b is even lower!) and the consequence of this is that the "tracks" you record will not look very loud. Fear not, the Pro's pre amps might be low gain but they are pretty quiet so you can lift the signals "digitally" without adding noise.
Re the PA problem: The baseline loudness MUST be set by the feedback limit of the PA in any particular venue. If the rest of the band do not recognise this fact then they ain't proper musicians!
Dave.
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Thank you all for your insight and suggestions
M-Audio's Fast Track USB seems to be what I need for home recording, in a lower budget. I wonder if I'll get a decent sound quality out of it. Anyone tried it yet?
The suggested Tascam US200 seems to be a great unit, but goes over my expected budget. Unless it will make a huge difference, I'll go for a cheaper equipment.
I'm not expecting pro quality of these products, I am just trying to get a decent sound out of this. Recording at home, with little or no acoustic treatment, over midi sampled instrument tracks, I surely do not expect to create something that only a real band in a professional studio could create lol
Are there any other low budget USB interfaces someone here has used and would recommend?
Also, regarding the live volume issue, I gather that, if I can't sing louder (project my voice more using trained techniques that is) or/ and get a better PA, there is no piece of in between equipment (preamp/ compressor/ whatever) that will actually help, is that it?
First off, the M Audio will do fine--and, despite the price, has been used in professional situations. I've used an M Audio Mobile Pre (which is similar but with two mic inputs) for some years to do mobile recordings and it performs well.
If I'm honest, I think the concept of "adding warmth" to an economy, live mic like an SM58 is more a triumph of marketing speak than reality. I'd also be very wary of an economy tube pre amp. Before you need to get into the subtleties that a boutique pre amp can provide you need to spend a lot of money--and have the rest of your set up matching in quality. At the risk of offending a lot of ART users, I always think of an economy tube pre amp as a bit like adding go faster stripes to a Beetle.
On your last question, I'm afraid the answer is "no". There's nothing you can put in the middle. It's all about gain staging--a mic pre brings the level up to line level and, from that point, trying to go louder (before you get to the amp/PA) will just overload the circuits in your mixer etc. which are expecting to operate at standard line level.
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T Sat
New member
Number 3, you can get something like a M Audio Fast Track if you don't need phantom power for relatively cheap price, its also small enough to carry around.
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ecc83
Well-known member
@ecc83, I own an SM58, not 57. And yes, I'm using Windows 7 64bits
My apologies! But many say it is just a 57 wiv a fancy top! The output is still pretty low. And while I am here. I have never tried the M-A usb , single mic input jobby but I cannot escape the "ToysRus" look of the thing! In anycase a single mic pre is so very limiting IMHO.
Win 64, good. I have a laptop and a biggy with that and the Fast track pro works on them faultlessly. I have to say tho' IF you should find an extra $150 per chance, the very best AI about at the moment is the Native Instruments Komplete Audio 6. Now the software package with that IS worth having! Finally DO get an AI with MIDI if at all possible, you WILL kick yourself later. "They" do not leave MIDI off to make a better AI but cheaper. They leave it off to make the same AI but make more money.
Dave.
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Wolfchild
New member
So the SM58 live habilities are over advertised? LOL I got it 5 years ago after reading reviews that it was a great budget live mike 
What mic with higher output, on a similar budget, would you recommend?
As far as the audio interface goes, a single XLR input with no MIDI is what I need, and I don't think I'll need anything extra in the future. I just want some decent vocal recording on a low budget, that gets as low amount of noise in as possible. This is a small hobbie. In the future, if I gravitate towards a more serious project, it will imply having a real band and recording in a studio with professional equipment
What mic with higher output, on a similar budget, would you recommend?As far as the audio interface goes, a single XLR input with no MIDI is what I need, and I don't think I'll need anything extra in the future. I just want some decent vocal recording on a low budget, that gets as low amount of noise in as possible. This is a small hobbie. In the future, if I gravitate towards a more serious project, it will imply having a real band and recording in a studio with professional equipment
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ecc83
Well-known member
So the SM58 live habilities are over advertised? LOL I got it 5 years ago after reading reviews that it was a great budget live mike
As far as the audio interface goes, a single XLR input with no MIDI is what I need, and I don't think I'll need anything extra in the future. I just want some decent vocal recording on a low budget, that gets as low amount of noise in as possible. This is a small hobbie. In the future, if I gravitate towards a more serious project, it will imply having a real band and recording in a studio with professional equipment
Sorry! Just my weird humour. Some say the 57 and 58 are very different microphones, others that they are essentially the same (I am pretty sure the capsule is the same pt#).
Best stage vocal mic? Well in 50+years you could expect a few improvements! Most "modern" Dynamics are about 6dB more sensitive than the Shures. Then there are quite a few stage capacitors now and some singers (who have experienced cap mics in a studio no doubt) like the flatter, more extended frequency range.
Please excuse my little hobby horse about emasculated AIs! I do think however that you should at least read up a bit on "co-incident stereo recording".
Dave.
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Wolfchild
New member
I will
No need to apologize, on the contrary, I'm learning here, that kind of suggestions is quite welcome
Bobbsy
Boring Old Git
Nope, the capsule for the SM57 is an R57 and for the SM58 it's an R59--you can see they're somewhat different HERE on the Shure website.
That said, the myth started because, back in the early days--the 1960s--they WERE the same capsule. The change happened sometime in the mid 70s. Even with the different design, the capsules themselves are still pretty similar spec. However, in mic design, the capsule is only part of the sound--the grill and case design has a huge impact on both the sound and the pick up pattern.
As Dave says, the SM58 is a design that's almost 50 years old now but the mere fact that it's still a workhorse in the live sound industry means they must have done something right. I'm not a huge fan of the sound (I prefer the Audix OM5 or OM6 or some of the Sennheisers) but, for some things, the 58 is still very good indeed. It has a pretty severe upper mid presence peak that really suits some voices but not others. The big thing with the 58 though is that it's tough as nails. Most of the ones in my mic box are battered and beaten...but still sound like they did when I bought them.
Although the output is lower than some modern dynamics (and way lower than most condensers) the M Audio I mentioned has enough pre amp gain to handle a 58 fine (with no noticeable noise) unless your voice is very very soft.
BTW, somebody mentioned the possibility of phantom power and that might be a consideration for you in the future. If you think you may want to upgrade to a studio condenser in the future, then it might be appropriate to upgrade you interface by a model or so. It also occurs that, just maybe, your "strain the voice" problem might be alleviated if you changed to a live condenser...maybe a Rode S1 or M2. Or, if you win the lottery, maybe a Neumann KMS104 which is probably my favouite live mic--but with a price tag to match!
However, none of those are super cheap options so, based on our initial post, I went with "in budget" rather than "future proof".