EQ'ing entire mix (low freq build-up and light on high freqs)

  • Thread starter Thread starter RecordingMaster
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Thanks guys, yes as my last post said, since the mix you've heard, I've made the tweaks I listed, like lowering beef on snare and toms.

Is the bass guitar non-existant to everyone else? I seem to hear it everywhere I listen to it.

So as far as your comments go pertaining to my original worry, it's not too bass heavy? If so, good. Kick drum transient isn't distorting or rumbling for you? If not, good. That means I can start comfortably bringing in a little more low end to things gradually.

As for roll offs, I was just trying to go for a tighter low end and less loose sloppiness. I figured due to my 5" monitors I can't really accurately monitor the ultra-low end, so I'd rather not guess. Guits were about 80, vox at maybe 100, toms at about 70, kick at 60, bass at 60 with a fairly large attenuation in the 100 hz range since there was way too much buildup (maybe that's why it's not bassy enough?), and synths, leads, etc are all at about 120 or more (all guess work/memory since I'm not at home). Does that sound like insanely aggressive roll-offs to anyone? I usually just use my ears and roll off until I can't hear all the non-important loose mud on things that only fogs it's clarity.

Greg, yes, perhaps it does sound boxy in the low mids, I'd agree with that. But I'm not exactly sure what would be causing it. I'd assume the bass guitar is doing it. I didn't really go too overboard with any drastic eq curves or compression settings, so I'm not sure what would be overcooked. Although I was sort of going for that overly done sound (at least on drums) for this tune. I didn't think the vox, guitars or anything else was too overdone. Except the super obvious delays here and there. lol
 
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RecordingMaster said:
Thanks guys, yes as my last post said, since the mix you've heard, I've made the tweaks I listed, like lowering beef on snare and toms.

Is the bass guitar non-existant to everyone else? I seem to hear it everywhere I listen to it.

So as far as your comments go pertaining to my original worry, it's not too bass heavy? If so, good. Kick drum transient isn't distorting or rumbling for you? If not, good. That means I can start comfortably bringing in a little more low end to things gradually.

As for roll offs, I was just trying to go for a tighter low end and less loose sloppiness. I figured due to my 5" monitors I can't really accurately monitor the ultra-low end, so I'd rather not guess. Guits were about 80, vox at maybe 100, toms at about 70, kick at 60, bass at 60 with a fairly large attenuation in the 100 hz range since there was way too much buildup (maybe that's why it's not bassy enough?), and synths, leads, etc are all at about 120 or more (all guess work/memory since I'm not at home). Does that sound like insanely aggressive roll-offs to anyone? I usually just use my ears and roll off until I can't hear all the non-important loose mud on things that only fogs it's clarity.

Greg, yes, perhaps it does sound boxy in the low mids, I'd agree with that. But I'm not exactly sure what would be causing it. I'd assume the bass guitar is doing it. I didn't really go too overboard with any drastic eq curves or compression settings, so I'm not sure what would be overcooked. Although I was sort of going for that overly done sound (at least on drums) for this tune. I didn't think the vox, guitars or anything else was too overdone.
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No, it's definitely not "bass heavy" to me. Your 5" monitors may be your own worst enemy here. I'm listening on 8" monitors and it sounds pretty weak in the low end. The low mids and mud region is very well represented though. It's like the whole mix is swimming in a cloud of low mid muck. A tight low end is a good thing, but the really low end is not coming through for me. And I didn't notice if you mentioned it before, but how's your mixing environment? Treated properly? IMO, that's a lot of rolling off or you just didn't capture very good sounds to begin with. Instead of rolling off the lows, try low mid scoops instead. Rolling off the low on everything doesn't make a tighter low end, it makes a non-existent low end. You cut out the lows, but left all the muck. For the guitars and vocals and stuff, rolling off around 75-100 is fine. But the kick is really lacking the clean low thud I think it needs in a mix like this. It sounds too prominent in the boxy low mids - like 100-300. I'm just guessing, but based on recording my own drums and many others, that plonky, boxy, kick sound usually lives in that range. Or maybe the kick was tuned too tight? I don't know without being there. I do know though that for me, the kick is not good. Try a sharp narrow boost on the kick around 50-60hz, and a mild scoop somewhere between 90-300. You might wanna scoop again around 400-500. See what that does. The snare and toms exhibit a lot of the same kind of low mid boxiness. The snare's presence in the mix is good, but it seems like it's kind of dull. Too much top head in the snare track and not enough snap or crack. Maybe roll off the snare around 100, boost a little around 225-250, and cut around 500. Boost wherever the snap is. That could tighten the snare but maintain it's power. Treat the toms like small kick drums. Yeah, for me, the majority of the problems are with the drums. I'd want less muck from the kick and toms and snare, and more snap from the snare, and more super lows from the kick.

I typically don't like giving out specific EQ recommendations without having the tracks to play with myself, but in this case, I think these general ideas could help you or at least get you pointed in the right direction..
 
Very helpful Greg! Yes a few things you mentioned have been fixed, but there's no sense me telling anyone to "imagine it", I should just repost....and I will after going and easing up the roll-offs on kick and bass. Yes Greg, actually I HAD a boost there around 60 hz and it sounded marvelous! Except my issue was even more problematic when i brought it to the car. Maybe just less of as boost than last time I guess. As for toms, I might having been overdoing the low harmonics on them in attempt to provide more beef. As for kick, yeah I did the best I could with it so far, I used a CAD kick mic at the time, but now I have a D112 and have been using it since. I also had a KickPort on because, at the time, I thought it sounded awesome. Well NOW I can tell you it's awful for recording! Very difficult to mix. It made the kick drum's low end have wayyyy to much muddy sustain and cutting it short with a gate or compression wasn't working well (sounded too electronic), hence my roll off being sloped a little too steep and not having any beef at all in 60 hz region. I'll work on that. As for snare, I couldn't give it much more snap without overdoing any eq's more than they already are on the snare. At the time I didn't have enough inputs to add the bottom snare mic, but I have been lately (with more avail inputs now) and I may start using it in new mixes. My monitoring environment: Monitors on high mass speaker stands with something like "mopads", corner traps in 3 corners, a closet in left rear corner filled tightly with heavy jackets and bed comforters, which actually works well with the door open, a love seat in the right rear corner, and early reflections trapped. No foam in there (just OC705), except for a few squares on the wall behind my 27" monitor.

Edit: My next addition/substitution will be 8" monitors!
 
Glad to help. :)

Be careful with that bottom snare mic. Sure, people have been using them successfully for decades, but you should be able to get all you need from one snare mic and overheads. I personally look at a bottom snare mic as a bonus option, not a necessity. Smart compression on the snare track can often bring out body and snap without a bunch of extra EQ. Proper tuning and mic placement is obviously the most important, but EQ and compression help on snares. Attack and release dude. Find the balance. I will most often look for the right compression for the snare before I go heavy petting the EQ.

Do your tweaks and put up another mix.
 
Greg_L said:
Glad to help. :)

Be careful with that bottom snare mic. Sure, people have been using them successfully for decades, but you should be able to get all you need from one snare mic and overheads. I personally look at a bottom snare mic as a bonus option, not a necessity. Smart compression on the snare track can often bring out body and snap without a bunch of extra EQ. Proper tuning and mic placement is obviously the most important, but EQ and compression help on snares. Attack and release dude. Find the balance. I will most often look for the right compression for the snare before I go heavy petting the EQ.

Do your tweaks and put up another mix.
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Yeah, my issue is, I have a 6' ceiling where I track drums, and that's all I have to work with until I find a new house. So instead of expecting to get all kinds of marvelous room sounds and sparkling highs right onto the raw track and leaving the drum room fairly untreated, I had to use 2" foam squares on the ceiling above drums (hanging clouds made it too low), and had to use a fair amount of treatment on the walls. Pretty good bass trapping down there though. So all that being said, drums come in pretty dry and slightly rounded off, so I often have issues getting the crisp snare I like (think Jimmy Chamberlin on the more popular 90's Pumpkins albums). So the bottom mic will do me some good in my situation. Not a good setup for me to have any diffusion in the drum room. Ceilings would be wayyy too low and OH's would be too close to drums.

I'm was using a BF1176 software plugin compressor on snare and kick. Snare's settings were fairly medium attack and release with 8:1 ratio I believe. Medium attack to let transients through and medium decay for a little sustain.

Will repost soon. Thanks!
 
Hey RecordingMaster, I think you should be less concerned about what it looks like on the spectrum analyzer, and more concerned with the mix being "portable" between different speaker systems. I think the best way to do that is to fix the mix, but I think you'd have an easier time doing so if you could steam your mix live to a bunch of multiple speaker systems to check how your mix changes effect the miss portability on a few systems. Check out this blog post I made on the subject: Music Mastering - Getting Your Mixes Ready.
 
Grahamrunsran said:
Hey RecordingMaster, I think you should be less concerned about what it looks like on the spectrum analyzer, and more concerned with the mix being "portable" between different speaker systems. I think the best way to do that is to fix the mix, but I think you'd have an easier time doing so if you could steam your mix live to a bunch of multiple speaker systems to check how your mix changes effect the miss portability on a few systems. Check out this blog post I made on the subject: Music Mastering - Getting Your Mixes Ready.
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Thanks Chris, very cool! While I have 3 separate systems I listen to my mix on, those are all in the same room. So your way is much cooler and has way more flexibility as opposed to burning cd's and wasting time that way! I've bookmarked it and will get that app...but on my wife's iphone (I have the all-terrible bberry).
 
Grahamrunsran said:
Hey RecordingMaster, I think you should be less concerned about what it looks like on the spectrum analyzer, and more concerned with the mix being "portable" between different speaker systems. I think the best way to do that is to fix the mix, but I think you'd have an easier time doing so if you could steam your mix live to a bunch of multiple speaker systems to check how your mix changes effect the miss portability on a few systems. Check out this blog post I made on the subject: Music Mastering - Getting Your Mixes Ready.
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I use a similar technique. I have a NAS box with a streaming server. I copy mixes to there. From there I can access from a DLINK media box on my stereo, my xbox on the media system, all my computers, laptops, phones, etc....
 
I picked up a $99 Sony car deck with USB input. Hell of a lot cheaper and faster than burning CD's. :D

I would definitely listen on different systems in 'different' rooms. The room itself is likely part of the problem in getting mixes to translate.
 
Here's the link (only up for a day or 2) to download the entire 24 bit wav. Only thing i did was normalized to 0 db. Last time you heard it I think I had accidentally run it through a loudness maximizer (was experimenting and forgot to turn it off). Oops. lol

Any better? Whaddya think? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/91669354/Fire 3rd Mixdown July 15-2012.wav

Well I picked away at the changes. Removed a lot more of the muddy harmonics that were on the toms and snare. Instead of boosting lows of kick around 90, I scooped where it was muddy in low mids (more than I already had), narrow boosted by almost 4db at around 60 hz and loosen up the roll off to around 40-45. For bass guitar I loosened up the roll off freq and slope to about 40-45 hz. Rhythm guits i loosen up roll off a bit, did a slight cut in the muddier low mids on the entire rhythm guitar stereo bus (4 tracks). Raised up the volume of the kick and eased up on the cut I had done on the bass guitar around 100 hz (still might want to cut a db or two out there upon mastering the entire track because it's a little overwhelming in the second half of verses (or pre-chorus if you want to call it that). Lowered snare level and beef.

Thanks SO much for all your help. First semi-pro track I've completed with my new setup and finally actually being able to multitrack drums, etc.
 
In case no one wants to read my above post and wants to get to the point (and since that link is no longer active), do a side-by-side comparison of these. Mind you the first one is louder, so to compare, adjust your listening volume accordingly.

If you followed this whole thread, you may have heard the original mix,. If not, here (fast forward 45 sec, sorry):
Fire First Mixdown July 5-12 Unmastered raw by Diesel Junkies on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

Here is what I have done with it. Let me know what you think (open in 2 separate browsers and toggle back and forth between them to compare)...
Fire Raw Mixdown July 17-2012 (Normalized Only), UNMASTERED by Diesel Junkies on SoundCloud - Create, record and share your sounds for free

Thanks for all the help guys.
 
This all comes down to your quest to strive towards the best possible monitoring situation you can. That means good speakers, good amps, good positioning, good acoustic treatment. Many of these issues will vanish completely if you address these fundamental issues at source. It all seems remarkably easy, but rarely implemented in home studios and thus over complicated by use of analyzers etc.

cheers

SafeandSound Mastering
Mastering studio
 
SafeandSound said:
This all comes down to your quest to strive towards the best possible monitoring situation you can. That means good speakers, good amps, good positioning, good acoustic treatment. Many of these issues will vanish completely if you address these fundamental issues at source. It all seems remarkably easy, but rarely implemented in home studios and thus over complicated by use of analyzers etc.

cheers

SafeandSound Mastering
Mastering studio
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Yes I would ABSOLUTELY 100% agree with you. But alas, the art of "home" recording when it's a part time gig (not the bill-paying job) is doing the best with what you have and getting away with as much treatment/monitoring you can, while avoiding a request for divorce from the wife! :p
 
chuckduffy said:
Can I ask a question? Have you looked at a graph of similar commercial music in the same genre? Stuff you like? I used to look at graphs of commercial mixes in an analyzer and lots of them have a bump in this range as that's where a lot of the whomp lives for the kick and bass. I mean no one really is expecting a flat graph here right with equal energy across the entire freq spectrum?!?!
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Exactly! You will never get a flat graph. And if it really sounds good outside of your studio than there is nothing wrong I believe :)
 
Loro said:
Exactly! You will never get a flat graph. And if it really sounds good outside of your studio than there is nothing wrong I believe :)
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So I have learned... Like I originally posted, I am new to fancy graphs and such and normally used just my ears like old school. It was more of a last step tool to see if there was anything I was missing. I mean c'mon guys, they didn't make the graph tool it if didn't have SOME type of use for it. For some reason I was under the impression everything should be relatively even all the way across, or that that was at least the "goal" of sorts. I guess I was picturing it like playing a disc on your hifi or in your car, and only cranking up the bass and then turning the treble down a bit. I was imagining as if my mix would sound that way even when flat on a different system, and that if I wanted it as even as possible elsewhere, I'd have to strive for the close-to-flat graph - which I now know that is not the case.

I am humble with my ways and learn what i can, when i can, as much as possible without getting a big head about it. So I have no shame in having those original thoughts. Pretty valid imo if you read the above paragraph.

Now that I know this, I agree 100% with not needing to strive for a flat graph. It's actually quite ridiculous now that I know. :facepalm: :o
 
Looking at the graph and trying to identify problems you don't hear isn't really a good technique unless something infrasonic or ultrasonic is getting into the signal. Interference from tube TVs and very low frequency rumble are examples. Mostly save the graph for helping you find things you already hear. Often they'll show up as a spike or bump sticking out of the usual downward slope. The graph had a little of that in the low end that may indicate a shortcoming in your monitoring. The graph is there as a guide, but you still need to take your mix to different systems and use your ears as the final test.
 
im far from a sound engineer, but your not creating a track that is going onto Bon Jovi's lastest CD (and thank god for that too) so cranking it up on a standard home stereo and car system is your best indicator as this is where most people listen to tracks. They dont listen to their songs in treated studio's.

Play your track, then put in your favourite CD and compare ! Best advice anyone can give from one Novice to another !
 
RecordingMaster said:
Here's the link (only up for a day or 2) to download the entire 24 bit wav. Only thing i did was normalized to 0 db. Last time you heard it I think I had accidentally run it through a loudness maximizer (was experimenting and forgot to turn it off). Oops. lol

Any better? Whaddya think? http://dl.dropbox.com/u/91669354/Fire 3rd Mixdown July 15-2012.wav

Well I picked away at the changes. Removed a lot more of the muddy harmonics that were on the toms and snare. Instead of boosting lows of kick around 90, I scooped where it was muddy in low mids (more than I already had), narrow boosted by almost 4db at around 60 hz and loosen up the roll off to around 40-45. For bass guitar I loosened up the roll off freq and slope to about 40-45 hz. Rhythm guits i loosen up roll off a bit, did a slight cut in the muddier low mids on the entire rhythm guitar stereo bus (4 tracks). Raised up the volume of the kick and eased up on the cut I had done on the bass guitar around 100 hz (still might want to cut a db or two out there upon mastering the entire track because it's a little overwhelming in the second half of verses (or pre-chorus if you want to call it that). Lowered snare level and beef.

Thanks SO much for all your help. First semi-pro track I've completed with my new setup and finally actually being able to multitrack drums, etc.
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Didn't get a chance to listen to the first link as it is a dead link now.
Ok the low end is too much, it needs tightened up, sounds very unbalanced as a whole in the EQ.
A good remix will produce great results as I can hear the recordings are good enough.

G
 
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