Does Cubase allow you to normalize tracks?

[chuckduffy]

If you have a specific reason it can make sense. But I think for most, normalizing is a bigger problem than it fixes. If that's how your workflow works best, I guess it's not a big problem. I just don't want a ton of people to get the idea that they need to normalize every track and then run into bigger problems (like running out of headroom)...just turn up the preamp and monitors and get the levels right tracking.

+1 cause lots of super hot tracks summed = hot mess - 32bit float mix bus or not.....

 

[RawDepth]

If you have a specific reason it can make sense. But I think for most, normalizing is a bigger problem than it fixes. If that's how your workflow works best, I guess it's not a big problem. I just don't want a ton of people to get the idea that they need to normalize every track and then run into bigger problems (like running out of headroom)...just turn up the preamp and monitors and get the levels right tracking.

For example, if the guitar track is really low why can't you just turn up the preamp? If the vocals are really low the same? If something is really dynamic, you can set the preamp so the peak isn't clipping and some parts may be really low comparatively. I just think a lot of normalizing is done because gain stagging isn't done from the beginning.

I think you're right that it doesn't hurt anything, just turns the volume up (I think). Even with a quiet source more preamp gain can get levels even.

Yes, I agree about turning up the preamp, in the studio. However, I record live gigs sometimes. I only work with one sound guy in my area because the rest of them use junk mics and won't do much to accommodate the recording. Anyway, I get my signal from his digital mixer, (a Yamaha 01V96VCM, I think.) He sends me 16 channels via ADAT straight into my DAW. The preamp levels are set by him in his mixer. Occasionally I notice that a channel or two is weak but, during the show, he refuses to change the mixer gain because it will throw off the stage monitor levels.

So, there you go...I sometimes end up with weak channels that I could not control when tracking. Enter: Normalization tricks. And no, it doesn't change the sound quality what-so-ever. It doesn't increase the signal-to-noise ratio either. It only turns it up the same as a preamp should have/could have/would have done.

 

[mixsit]

Where it's needed as a track prep tool, I can see nomalizing to a given target using RMS, but why would you want the track to land be based on a stray peak?

How about Audio> Process> Gain? Dial in whatever gain it needs.

 

[mixsit]

If you have a specific reason it can make sense. But I think for most, normalizing is a bigger problem than it fixes. If that's how your workflow works best, I guess it's not a big problem. I just don't want a ton of people to get the idea that they need to normalize every track and then run into bigger problems (like running out of headroom)...just turn up the preamp and monitors and get the levels right tracking.
. ...

I guess there is a work style where they want 'faders at zero and gain every track to accommodate that as a starting point.
(there I don't see the point really.

 

[chuckduffy]

Yes, I agree about turning up the preamp, in the studio. However, I record live gigs sometimes. I only work with one sound guy in my area because the rest of them use junk mics and won't do much to accommodate the recording. Anyway, I get my signal from his digital mixer, (a Yamaha 01V96VCM, I think.) He sends me 16 channels via ADAT straight into my DAW. The preamp levels are set by him in his mixer. Occasionally I notice that a channel or two is weak but, during the show, he refuses to change the mixer gain because it will throw off the stage monitor levels.

So, there you go...I sometimes end up with weak channels that I could not control when tracking. Enter: Normalization tricks. And no, it doesn't change the sound quality what-so-ever. It doesn't increase the signal-to-noise ratio either. It only turns it up the same as a preamp should have/could have/would have done.

For the record - I'm not arguing with you dude. I was only pointing out that -

1. I just use the trim knobs, it's just more like a board to me - and that's a workflow thing - strictly personal preference
2. If I were to normalize I wouldn't do it to 0 as I would just have to lower the gain later to leave room for additional processing like EQ...
3. I read about people normalizing everything - which is leaves them summing lots of super hot tracks which = hot mess in my experience

 

[chuckduffy]

I guess there is a work style where they want 'faders at zero and gain every track to accommodate that as a starting point.
(there I don't see the point really.

Yeah - I totally see people do that. I never do it though. I drop all faders, get the kick, bass, snare and lead vocal level balance right (the bedrock of the song) - set that pretty much in stone and mix everything else around it with level, panning and eq. But again - that's a workflow personal preference.

 

[arcadeko]

If I did normalize I wouldn't go anywhere near 0 as cause I ALWAYS leave room for plugs that add gain..... I need to keep things simple cause I'm stupid - so I tend to do my gain changes with faders, trims and automation like on a board.

I add VST's and stuff but they don't change the source wave. The faders still work - there is no clipping ever -

Wave (normalized to 0) -> VST's EQ/verb compressor, whatever -> fader -> stereo mix... In Cubase the plug-ins add gain but they don't affect the original wave file - you can just slide the fader down to reduce volume - I keep all my levels under 0 on the fader meter! - maybe there is some confusion of terminology here (quite possibly mine)...

The only time I ever get clipping is when my trim is too high or my pre-amp is too hot - (which only happens with my vocal mic cause that that's the only thing I run through an external pre, the trim on the mixer handles everything else) -and when that happens it's the wave file that is clipped - so I always record pretty low just to make sure a spike doesn't clip - then after I got the wave in cubase I normalize instead of adding a VST preamp which might add some weird color or something -

- with normalization I often don't have to use any plug-ins at all on a track - if I have a good source I don't need to tweak it (which is always my ultimate goal) - I have succeeded with guitar and bass recording so the only thing I am left to screw up with plug-ins is my vocals... which suck anyway so I can't really do too much damage, but I usually find a way to make them sound worse

 

[mixsit]

Yeah - I totally see people do that. I never do it though. I drop all faders, get the kick, bass, snare and lead vocal level balance right (the bedrock of the song) - set that pretty much in stone and mix everything else around it with level, panning and eq. But again - that's a workflow personal preference.

Exactally. One I do leave at zero though is my master fader. If my mix comes in a little below (or above) nominal at the master I use the 'pre/gain trim there.

 

[chuckduffy]

I add VST's and stuff but they don't change the source wave. The faders still work - there is no clipping ever -

Wave (normalized to 0) -> VST's EQ/verb compressor, whatever -> fader -> stereo mix... In Cubase the plug-ins add gain but they don't affect the original wave file - you can just slide the fader down to reduce volume - I keep all my levels under 0 on the fader meter! - maybe there is some confusion of terminology here (quite possibly mine)...

The only time I ever get clipping is when my trim is too high or my pre-amp is too hot - (which only happens with my vocal mic cause that that's the only thing I run through an external pre, the trim on the mixer handles everything else) -and when that happens it's the wave file that is clipped - so I always record pretty low just to make sure a spike doesn't clip - then after I got the wave in cubase I normalize instead of adding a VST preamp which might add some weird color or something -

- with normalization I often don't have to use any plug-ins at all on a track - if I have a good source I don't need to tweak it (which is always my ultimate goal) - I have succeeded with guitar and bass recording so the only thing I am left to screw up with plug-ins is my vocals... which suck anyway so I can't really do too much damage, but I usually find a way to make them sound worse

Sorry - I don't want to confuse the issue - so I will try and explain... Inserts are pre fader. When you normalize you have peak level signals going into insert plugins. The fader has nothing to do with it. You are robbing the insert plug of all headroom. Depending on the design of the plug they can clip internally. The meters are generally going to read post fader (unless you change the settings). I'm trying to explain that you can have clipping going on, and never even see it on the channel meter....

 

[chuckduffy]

Exactally. One I do leave at zero though is my master fader. If my mix comes in a little below (or above) nominal at the master I use the 'pre/gain trim there.

I leave the master at unity too. If things come in hot or low I gang all channel faders and raise or lower accordingly. Again - this is a hold over and a personal preference.

 

[rocksure]

I add VST's and stuff but they don't change the source wave. The faders still work - there is no clipping ever -

Wave (normalized to 0) -> VST's EQ/verb compressor, whatever -> fader -> stereo mix... In Cubase the plug-ins add gain but they don't affect the original wave file - you can just slide the fader down to reduce volume - I keep all my levels under 0 on the fader meter! - maybe there is some confusion of terminology here (quite possibly mine)...

The only time I ever get clipping is when my trim is too high or my pre-amp is too hot - (which only happens with my vocal mic cause that that's the only thing I run through an external pre, the trim on the mixer handles everything else) -and when that happens it's the wave file that is clipped - so I always record pretty low just to make sure a spike doesn't clip - then after I got the wave in cubase I normalize instead of adding a VST preamp which might add some weird color or something -

- with normalization I often don't have to use any plug-ins at all on a track - if I have a good source I don't need to tweak it (which is always my ultimate goal) - I have succeeded with guitar and bass recording so the only thing I am left to screw up with plug-ins is my vocals... which suck anyway so I can't really do too much damage, but I usually find a way to make them sound worse

I think you and some others on here could benefit from reading this tutorial:

Audio Recording Gain Staging | Rocksure Soundz

Working with the levels of your individual tracks just below 0dbFS is not a good idea at all. Simply lowering the fader is not the answer. It will still clip the input to your plugins ( which don't want to see levels that hot) and will lower the amount of overall headroom you have. The article in the link explains why this is the case.

 

[chuckduffy]

I think you and some others on here could benefit from reading this tutorial:

Audio Recording Gain Staging | Rocksure Soundz

Working with the levels of your individual tracks just below 0dbFS is not a good idea at all. Simply lowering the fader is not the answer. It will still clip the input to your plugins ( which don't want to see levels that hot) and will lower the amount of overall headroom you have. The article in the link explains why this is the case.

Below is a semi popular waves plug. If that circled red light comes on it's had clipping - bad juju for audio. If you run a normalized file through this plug it will clip, guaranteed. If you are paying attention to the post fader meter you would never know it - except something will sound wrong at the highest peak of your track (the peak that is now @ 0 after normalization).

 

[JimmyS1969]

^^yep!^^

Great example

 

[aaronmcoleman]

Yeah if it works for you keep it...but I just don't want a bunch of newbs to come along and find this and think they have to normalize all their tracks to get the best sound.

And for that live example, I agree, normalization can be a huge benefit...but that is just for a couple specific cases.

 

[arcadeko]

Sorry - I don't want to confuse the issue - so I will try and explain... Inserts are pre fader. When you normalize you have peak level signals going into insert plugins. The fader has nothing to do with it. You are robbing the insert plug of all headroom. Depending on the design of the plug they can clip internally. The meters are generally going to read post fader (unless you change the settings). I'm trying to explain that you can have clipping going on, and never even see it on the channel meter....

Sheite! Well now there is a reason to stop normalizing everything to 0!!! Thanks dude, I'm glad you stuck with this cause this makes total sense and I can now apply it to my mixing!

That's the first time I clearly understood exactly why it was bad

thanks man - good to know!

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to chuckduffy again.

I think you and some others on here could benefit from reading this tutorial:

Audio Recording Gain Staging | Rocksure Soundz

Working with the levels of your individual tracks just below 0dbFS is not a good idea at all. Simply lowering the fader is not the answer. It will still clip the input to your plugins ( which don't want to see levels that hot) and will lower the amount of overall headroom you have. The article in the link explains why this is the case.

Thanks for the link - I will read it

 

[chuckduffy]

Sheite! Well now there is a reason to stop normalizing everything to 0!!! Thanks dude, I'm glad you stuck with this cause this makes total sense and I can now apply it to my mixing!

That's the first time I clearly understood exactly why it was bad

thanks man - good to know!

Just a few more thoughts - cause it's not black and white and I'll probably get flamed by some folks

1. Not all plugs clip like this - but you are totally at the mercy of the developer and how they implement internally - no matter what the resolution of the DAW or the plug architecture...

2. You can normalize all you want if you want - but you need to be aware that you are generally leaving *no* headroom at the peaks, and it can clip plugs. If you normalize then you will probably have to use the channel trim to lower the gain - which is why I said something like 'why would I normalize when I know I'm only going to have to lower it later...' In the case of the picture I posted, I would have to lower the gain slider until the clip light no longer comes on - but if it comes in the middle of the song, there's a really good chance I wouldn't catch it. I know that I generally open a plug, get it sounding good and close. I'm NOT watching the thing the whole time.

3. Once a plug clips that clipped signal is passed down the rest of the chain into other plugs, causing other un-intended side effects.

4. If you use any analog gear on inserts you absolutely, positively gotta be aware of this stuff. Of course it should be pretty apparent right away that something is wrong if you happen to be clipping and send it to external gear.

5. Watching the post fader meters can lead you to believe that everything is cool when it's not. Switching to input metering once in a while can help, but that's not going to include the insert plugs.....

 

[arcadeko]

If you normalize then you will probably have to use the channel trim to lower the gain -

here is the rub - Cubase Le 4 doesn't have channel trim... if it did I probably wouldn't have to normailze everything!

but I can just normalize to a lower level if I need to instead of 0

 

[aaronmcoleman]

-18 and you're always gonna be good!

(well probably almost always...i'm sure there is an exception...i just can't think of any)

 

[chuckduffy]

here is the rub - Cubase Le 4 doesn't have channel trim... if it did I probably wouldn't have to normailze everything!

but I can just normalize to a lower level if I need to instead of 0

There are tons of freeware vst trim plugs. You can add one to the first insert slot.

 

[TyphoidHippo]

Just a few more thoughts - cause it's not black and white and I'll probably get flamed by some folks
...

Anybody who would flame you about this doesn't know wtf they're talking about. You're dead on from all angles. Have you developed plugins (and/or done general DSP programming)? I have questions pretty often and nobody to talk to about it....