Aux Tracks for Effects (How to not raise overall volume)

[RecordingMaster]

Hi there,

I'm somewhat new to Pro Tools 9. My setup is outlined in my siggy below.

Here's how I have this current session routed:
- I have all my individual drum tracks (OH Right, OH Left, snare, kick, tom1, tom2, tom3). They each have their own gate, compression and eq because each track has different requirements for those effects.
- I have all the above individual drum tracks outputted (using the output field) to a master drum bus fader
- to fatten up the drum sound, i double the snare, kick and tom tracks by sending them to an aux track with a BF76 compressor smashing it with all buttons in! I mix the volume of that aux track to taste.

Now here's the last step where I need some help...
- For reverb on the whole kit, I have created another stereo aux track and sent all of my individual drum tracks to it as well (like a bus, but using the sends, not the OUTPUT field), and only mixed in each track's send level to as much reverb I'd like for each individual drum track.
- The problem is, doing this raises the individual signal level yet again for each track, resulting in overloading the master fader. I've already doubled the drum tracks once for the smashed BF76 compression track to fatten them up. This reverb aux track is tripling them. So If I want TONS of verb on snare, the the volume will end up being VERY high, which doesn't seem right.

So how do I make it so that I can have a master fader to control the AMOUNT/LEVEL of reverb without raising the volume of the overall tracks? I know about the "input" and "Mix" settings on the reverb unit itself, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

I don't want to add verb to the individual inputs on each track, because that cuts away the original dry signal and makes the overall signal weak and get lost in a busy mix. Makes it too distant. I also don't want to only add reverb to the BF76 drum compressed double track because then I'd just be reverberating the hugely compressed snare, kick and toms. I want to reverberate the dry signal without raising it's volume.

Any help?

 

[bouldersoundguy]

So how do I make it so that I can have a master fader to control the AMOUNT/LEVEL of reverb without raising the volume of the overall tracks? I know about the "input" and "Mix" settings on the reverb unit itself, but that's not what I'm talking about here.

Well, I was going to suggest setting the mix on the reverb unit to 100% wet otherwise the reverb plugin increases the level of the dry tracks routed to it. Are you sure that's not what we're talking about?

 

[RecordingMaster]

Well, I was going to suggest setting the mix on the reverb unit to 100% wet otherwise the reverb plugin increases the level of the dry tracks routed to it. Are you sure that's not what we're talking about?

No, because that still raises the overall volume quite significantly, especially if I want a huge reverb effect, say on the snare. I know I can't add anything sonically to a mix (eg reverb) and expect it not to raise the dB level AT ALL, but I'm looking to have my reverb aux track to only be responsible for adding reverb, not doubling the dry signal AND adding reverb. I've already got the signal doubled elsewhere and can't afford to add yet another layer of the same source.

I remember someone on here (or somewhere on the interwebs) mentioning a cool way to bounce the signal over to another track or aux track and do something so the reverb reacts to the original dry signal, but doesn't play that signal, just the reverb. It would be cool if reverbs (maybe some do!) had a little button to mute the original signal to your ear, but the reverb software still hears it in order to reproduce just the reverb reaction, then blend that with the original dry snare track tastefully.

Hmmmm...


Anyone else?

PS: thanks for the reply bouldersoundguy.

 

[Steenamaroo]

I remember someone on here (or somewhere on the interwebs) mentioning a cool way to bounce the signal over to another track or aux track and do something so the reverb reacts to the original dry signal, but doesn't play that signal, just the reverb. It would be cool if reverbs (maybe some do!) had a little button to mute the original signal to your ear, but the reverb software still hears it in order to reproduce just the reverb reaction, then blend that with the original dry snare track tastefully.

What you're describing is what BSG says. Reverb on a bus set to 100% wet.

It will always raise the volume to some extent because you're adding something to the signal, but it won't add more 'dry' to your original track.

 

[RecordingMaster]

What you're describing is what BSG says. Reverb on a bus set to 100% wet.

It will always raise the volume to some extent because you're adding something to the signal, but it won't add more 'dry' to your original track.

Ok, so that WAS what I read about. hmmm. I tried that with somewhat unsatisfying results. It seems as though when I turn down the "Input" level (aka "Dry") on the reverb unit, it makes the reverb sound different from what I find pleasing - which is a given. Put it this way, I love the way my snare sounds with a reverb unit thrown into one of its inputs, set at 100" dry and 33% wet. However, it reduces the dB level of the snare in the mix and I don't want to overcompensate by just turning up it's volume in the mix. So when I do it as described by BSG, I am hearing way more dry which is fine, but it feels like I really have to crank up that RVB aux track in order to hear it on the snare in the mix (I want a cheesy snare for this application) resulting in a huge increase in dB's. Maybe I need to compensate somewhere else. hmmm...

 

[Steenamaroo]

There should be a difference in sound between adjusting the reverb send level and the reverb track level (post verb).

I think i usually keep the send level at 0 and adjust the fader for the aux track post reverb so it doesn't change how the reverb sounds, but rather how loud it is.

It's kinda like speaking quietly in a hall close to someone and speaking louder further away.

Hope that helps.

 

[RecordingMaster]

There should be a difference in sound between adjusting the reverb send level and the reverb track level (post verb).

I think i usually keep the send level at 0 and adjust the fader for the aux track post reverb so it doesn't change how the reverb sounds, but rather how loud it is.

Right. That makes sense. Except, when I create a separate aux track for the reverb on the rest of my drums, I like more verb on the OH's, barely any on kick and somewhere in the middle for toms (but all the same hall type of reverb wll be fine on those), so I will be needing to adjust the send level for each. Unless I create a separate aux for each. Ug.

 

[Steenamaroo]

Yeah that's true. I duno, it never caused me that much of a problem.
Anytime I've done it I've only sent the overheads and snare to the aux anyway, but that's just me and each mix is different I suppose.

 

[bouldersoundguy]

Adding reverb will mostly increase the perceived level, even if you have the mix set to 100%. It's just something we deal with. You might experiment with sends set to pre-fader.

 

[RecordingMaster]

Adding reverb will mostly increase the perceived level, even if you have the mix set to 100%. It's just something we deal with. You might experiment with sends set to pre-fader.

Hmm interesting. To me it seems it doesn't raise the perceived volume (it doesn't sound that much louder) but the meter is showing me that it's now clipping, when before I added the reverb channel the level was at say -6 or so. If I were blind, I'd have kept it I guess. Which wouldn't have been good.

If I set the send to Pre fader, it just seems to make the reverb SUPER weak and practically inaudible, which makes me need to crank the send volume and the aux volume all the way up, just to hear it in the mix. More lovely experimentation on something that should be quick and simple, I guess.

Thanks for the suggestions, fellas!

 

[bouldersoundguy]

If I set the send to Pre fader, it just seems to make the reverb SUPER weak and practically inaudible,

If you set it to pre-fader you can send to the reverb without sending to the mix. All you get is reverb return with no dry signal. If you want more reverb and less level that might be the next step.

But be sure you are starting your mixes with plenty of headroom. I know that if I start with my drums peaking around -18dBFS the level will creep upward as I add elements. I'm not sure what you mean by "-6", but if you're hitting -6dBFS peaks on your master bus you're running a bit hot. Pull everything down until your average level is lower, say -16dBFS, and your peaks are about -12dBFS.

 

[RecordingMaster]

If you set it to pre-fader you can send to the reverb without sending to the mix. All you get is reverb return with no dry signal.

I tried it again last night and liked the result, but noticed, if I turn the snare down, it's reverb track won't turn down with it. I wanted more simultaneous reaction (as if it were set as an input for the snare), so I kept it post fader and finally achieved a usable and satisfactory sound. I found if I turn down the dry signal a bit more on the reverb unit itself, and put the mix setting up to 100% on the unit, I could find a happy medium and my overall snare volume isn't raising up as much.

But be sure you are starting your mixes with plenty of headroom. I know that if I start with my drums peaking around -18dBFS the level will creep upward as I add elements. I'm not sure what you mean by "-6", but if you're hitting -6dBFS peaks on your master bus you're running a bit hot. Pull everything down until your average level is lower, say -16dBFS, and your peaks are about -12dBFS.

Yes, I was referring to -6 dB of headroom and when I added my smashed BF76 drum double track and now my reverb sends for each close mic, it's peaking at like 0. So I realized how terrible of a brain fart I've been suffering...I realized I could just bus the drum reverb aux tacks and the drum compressed double tracks through the master drum bus fader. Now I can just turn ALL the drums down. It's odd, because it's not like I didn't know I could do this or why would I have had a master drum bus in the first place?! Anyways...so to give me more headroom to lay down guitars and everything else under the sun, I can now start by bringing down the drums master bus to -18 like you suggested or whatever works for my scenario.

As always, I really appreciate your help guys. Thanks again!