Is there a name for this tuning?

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pure.fusion

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Hi guys,

https://homerecording.com/bbs/equip...tar-tuning-temperament-primer-revised-290728/

I finally read this sticky - yeah, I was wondering about the Buzz Feiten system. Obvioulsy it's not a total solution to the native temperament issue. Whether or not it gives a more accurate tuning overall on average, who knows. Personally, I think for a lot of the people I see caught up in worrying about it, there's probably a whole bunch of more effective things they could be doing to address their tuning and guitar playing :guitar:

Anyway, on to the topic at hand.

Have you ever noticed that when you tune your guitar with a tuner, the top E and bottom E strings don’t sound like they’re in tune?

Or looking from the other direction, if you tune your top E and bottom E by ear until they sound like they are in tune, have you noticed that the tuner says that they are not in tune?

Over the years, I’ve come to tune my guitars this way. I tune with a tuner, then I make the top E slightly sharper, and the bottom E slightly flatter until they *sound* like they are perfectly in tune, then I graduate the middle strings (A, D, G, B) to suit the E strings which have now shifted. (ie the A slightly flatter to approach the bottom E, and the B slightly sharper to approach the top E).

Now, to me this tuning sounds more in tune than a “tuner” tune. Is there a name for this tuning or anomaly that’s going on?

Does anybody else out there do this?

Cheers,
FM
 
I think you need a new tuner! If you have to adjust everything sharp or flat ....
 
mjbphotos said:
I think you need a new tuner! If you have to adjust everything sharp or flat ....
Click to expand...

I don't *have* to adjust everything sharp or flat. I choose to adjust everything sharp or flat because it sounds nicer to the ear.

Im saying my instruments sound "more in tune", most noticable by listening to the combination of the top and bottom E being played together, by ignoring the tuner and purposefully making the tuning as I described above.



FM
 
Sorry, but if you've got 1 E flat and 1 E sharp, and they sound in tune, either your tuner isn't adjusted, or your ears aren't. Is it sounding better when you are playing bar chords up the neck, etc? If so, then its an intonation problem.
 
mjbphotos said:
Sorry, but if you've got 1 E flat and 1 E sharp, and they sound in tune, either your tuner isn't adjusted, or your ears aren't.
Click to expand...

Fair enough Mike B. Thanks for your replys anyway :)

That's "the thing" right there though, isn't it. It's going to be hard to get across in a forum because everyone is going to have a different amount of 'ear'. You're either have a good ear, be it natural or learned, or you don't. And certainly no offence to those who don't; doesn't mean you're any less of a player.

So no we're not talking intonation, it's open notes only. No, my tuner(s) are not broken.
... and no, I'm not tone deaf. In fact, far from it.

I'm putting it out there that a tuner-tuned low E and top E (open string) are slightly out of tune with each other.

I hear it (and you may hear it) in the same way as listening to the two top E strings on a 12 string guitar (where they are exectly the same note) and the two of them aren't in tune with each other. You'd more likely hear the 12 string example that because they're exactly the same note and any slight variation between the two caused audible nodes and beating etc. Stands out like dogs balls right? And it's such a nice sound when you tune it in and the two notes sound as one when you pluck them both?

Same for the top E and bottom E of your 6 string when you tune them away from what Mr Tuner says, just an octave apart which might make it harder to hear.

Is familiar to anyone out there? (Apart from Mike there's a lot of silence here - I get the feeling I'm coming across :drunk: :laughings:)

Cheers,
FM
 
Well, there are 2 octaves between the Low and High E's ...

Can you post a sound clip?
 
mjbphotos said:
Well, there are 2 octaves between the Low and High E's ...
Click to expand...

Yes, my bad. There are two octaves between the E's.

mjbphotos said:
Can you post a sound clip?
Click to expand...

Yes, but I haven't got a specific A/B comparison of tunings. The guitar used in this song is tuned as previously mentioned. All my guitars have been tuned like this for years so any of my recordings have this tuning.
(You better ignore the mixing and singing, and the fact that one guitar part is tuned down to 'D', which doesn't change the tuning method btw)

The Green Police

If there was enough interest I'd record an A/B for you but I think at this stage my query is answered. If the tuning thing was common or a known anomaly I think there'd be a least one guy chime in out of 120 views.

Cheers,
FM
 
Here you go - even better than the golf crap, a quick A/B sample.

Tuner vs ear tuning

I recorded two samples of the top E and Bottom E being plucked together.

The first sample (A) I tuned the guitar with a tuner. Yes very carefully.
The second sample (B), I tuned it by ear which involved turning the top E sharper than where the tuner put it, and the bottom E flatter than where the tuner put it.

I then pasted the two sample together (A)(B) , and repeated another 3 times (A)(B)(A)(B)(A)(B)(A)(B).

Remember these are subtle differences but in terms of tuning and how "settled" the notes sound together, a significant difference I think.

Cheers,
FM
 
Your tuner sample - the low E is sharp. Tuners have a nasty time with the low notes. Someone posted here with the best tuning method, you'll have to search for it. Basically, tune your A string per the tuner, then tune everything to that, using harmonics and octaves.
 
I tune the low E a touch flat from the tuner so it sounds in tune when I fret it, I thought pushing on the string bent the note a little sharp but now that you mention it, maybe it has been my tuner(s) all along.
 
It would be good if someone else here gave a listen and commented, but I've been tuning guitars for more than 40 years, and I inherited almost-perfect pitch from my father, so yes, it just may be your tuner all along. :)
 
The 'A' sample definitely is out with each other. I don't have the same problem with any of my tuners, including "Pitch Bot" which is in my iPhone and uses the mic on there. What kind of tuner are you using? Is it one that simply shows the note letter with a #/b arrow or does it have a "wheel" so you can see every tiny adjustment? In 25yrs, I've never had to tune sharp/flat on a string to be in-tune. I would look into either a different tuner, a true chromatic tuner, or a strobe tuner (overkill). I can tune to, say, Dream Theater's "Pull Me Under" which starts on a pitch-perfect E via ear and move it to my tuner and still be dead on.

Never seen, nor heard of, this "anomaly" you've mentioned.
 
pure.fusion said:
Fair enough Mike B. Thanks for your replys anyway :)

That's "the thing" right there though, isn't it. It's going to be hard to get across in a forum because everyone is going to have a different amount of 'ear'. You're either have a good ear, be it natural or learned, or you don't. And certainly no offence to those who don't; doesn't mean you're any less of a player.

So no we're not talking intonation, it's open notes only. No, my tuner(s) are not broken.
... and no, I'm not tone deaf. In fact, far from it.

I'm putting it out there that a tuner-tuned low E and top E (open string) are slightly out of tune with each other.

I hear it (and you may hear it) in the same way as listening to the two top E strings on a 12 string guitar (where they are exectly the same note) and the two of them aren't in tune with each other. You'd more likely hear the 12 string example that because they're exactly the same note and any slight variation between the two caused audible nodes and beating etc. Stands out like dogs balls right? And it's such a nice sound when you tune it in and the two notes sound as one when you pluck them both?

Same for the top E and bottom E of your 6 string when you tune them away from what Mr Tuner says, just an octave apart which might make it harder to hear.

Is familiar to anyone out there? (Apart from Mike there's a lot of silence here - I get the feeling I'm coming across :drunk: :laughings:)

Cheers,
FM
Click to expand...
I'm a long time piano tuner.
Sorry but octaves are either in tune or they're not. That doesn't mean that you personally can't choose what you like regardless of that but the fact is that the E's should have 'no beats' if they're in tune.
With a decent tuner they won't.
No .... tuners do not tune one E differently than the other unless they're a crappy tuner.
 
Zarkwan said:
I tune the low E a touch flat from the tuner so it sounds in tune when I fret it, I thought pushing on the string bent the note a little sharp but now that you mention it, maybe it has been my tuner(s) all along.
Click to expand...

No...actually pressing down on the strings can make notes noticeably sharp compared to all strings open...and where you are pressing along the neck also makes a difference.

I tune all my strings by pressing...NEVER open, because I may play an open string note once for every 1000 pressed notes...so I don't see the point in tuning with open strings.
How hard you press when you tune them (or play them) is also key. Everyone has their touch, so you have to press them with the same pressure that you do when playing, and of course, it's an average, as you also will never press all notes exactly the same, but don't press very lightly when tuning if you play more firmly....which is how I tend to play.

I tune using a strobe....and then I check how it sounds up/down the neck, as there are just so many variables, you always end up having to "fudge" here-n-there...either with the fine-tuning or while playing.
 
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