nzausrec
Member
How do you get drums to sit behind the other instruments? Is it a strange question? When you play in a room the amps are closer to the ear and the drums further away ...
HaPpY ChRistMaS
HaPpY ChRistMaS
G
Greg_L
Banned
Mix them lower in the mix.
Massive Master
www.massivemastering.com
Not a strange question - An EXCELLENT question that isn't asked nearly enough.
Too many recordings have (work with me here...) kind of a giant "kidney bean" shaped drum kit with a spattering of instruments inside of it. Many of the people who make these mixes wonder why their mixes sound very "two-dimensional" (for lack of a better term), lacking depth and space (except for the drum overheads).
Many times, it's really simple -- The best way to have "space" and "depth" in a recording is to use SPACE AND DEPTH WHILE RECORDING.
Each individual mic is picking up an individual signal -- When you're in a room, everything is a different distance from your ears. In a recording, the speakers are the only reproduction of that distance. Drums wind up sounding huge and "surrounding the space" because much of the time, those mics (the overheads specifically here) were the only things that weren't right up next to the source. If you record everything 6-12" from a mic, your mixes apparent depth will be 6-12" deep. People add reverb and early reflections to simulate distance and space - But what a mic hears at 12" is totally different than what it hears at 3 or 4 feet -- And there really isn't a simple way to create that distance after the fact.
Distance matters. Space matters. The room matters. How that room is captured matters.
NO DOUBT: A lot of recordists don't have a reasonable sounding space. Or they throw a bunch of foam up all over the walls and wonder why their recordings sound muddy and lifeless. Same thing (and other things, but for this, we'll stick with the subject at hand). And to that end, well, that's what happens. That's why the most important feature of pretty much any studio is the sound of the space(s).
Long story short (yeah, I know - I should've thought of that earlier), record things how you want to hear them. Go ahead and close-mic those guitars -- But don't forget putting a mic across the room too. Then pan accordingly. If you want the kit to sound towards the back, don't pan the overheads hard L/R. If you want the guitars to sound like they're on the outside of the kit, make sure the room mics ARE panned hard - but not necessarily the guitars. Record incidental percussives (think shakers, tambourines, rain sticks, etc.) from across the room - Heck, I mic the reflections off the wall with some percussives whether I'm panning them out or not. Distance makes a difference.
Too many recordings have (work with me here...) kind of a giant "kidney bean" shaped drum kit with a spattering of instruments inside of it. Many of the people who make these mixes wonder why their mixes sound very "two-dimensional" (for lack of a better term), lacking depth and space (except for the drum overheads).
Many times, it's really simple -- The best way to have "space" and "depth" in a recording is to use SPACE AND DEPTH WHILE RECORDING.
Each individual mic is picking up an individual signal -- When you're in a room, everything is a different distance from your ears. In a recording, the speakers are the only reproduction of that distance. Drums wind up sounding huge and "surrounding the space" because much of the time, those mics (the overheads specifically here) were the only things that weren't right up next to the source. If you record everything 6-12" from a mic, your mixes apparent depth will be 6-12" deep. People add reverb and early reflections to simulate distance and space - But what a mic hears at 12" is totally different than what it hears at 3 or 4 feet -- And there really isn't a simple way to create that distance after the fact.
Distance matters. Space matters. The room matters. How that room is captured matters.
NO DOUBT: A lot of recordists don't have a reasonable sounding space. Or they throw a bunch of foam up all over the walls and wonder why their recordings sound muddy and lifeless. Same thing (and other things, but for this, we'll stick with the subject at hand). And to that end, well, that's what happens. That's why the most important feature of pretty much any studio is the sound of the space(s).
Long story short (yeah, I know - I should've thought of that earlier), record things how you want to hear them. Go ahead and close-mic those guitars -- But don't forget putting a mic across the room too. Then pan accordingly. If you want the kit to sound towards the back, don't pan the overheads hard L/R. If you want the guitars to sound like they're on the outside of the kit, make sure the room mics ARE panned hard - but not necessarily the guitars. Record incidental percussives (think shakers, tambourines, rain sticks, etc.) from across the room - Heck, I mic the reflections off the wall with some percussives whether I'm panning them out or not. Distance makes a difference.
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saads
Baka
^ All that is fine, but what if you have a sucky room ? Even if I do put up room mics when tracking, I know I most likely won't use those tracks when mixing. I think when most of us here close track everything and add reverb later, it's because of necessity, so to say. I'd love to throw up room mics to capture the natural reverb of my kit in a big, treated room with a high ceiling, but it doesn't work when the room is small and the same room you sleep/mix/track/study in.
nzausrec
Member
Thank you for your excellent answer.
I wanted to mention also the predicament when using software drums. Should the same attitude suffice - 'record' with lots of reverb plugged in for rooms, panned to bounce off the walls, ease up the volume for the mix?
I wanted to mention also the predicament when using software drums. Should the same attitude suffice - 'record' with lots of reverb plugged in for rooms, panned to bounce off the walls, ease up the volume for the mix?
ecktronic
Mixing and Mastering.
Try recording your drums with the mics a little further from source as you would normally if you have a decent enough room to do this. A bad room will make the room reverb in your drums sound .. bad.
At Mixing you could turn the volume of the drums down more than usual, and add more reverb to create a more distant sound.
G
At Mixing you could turn the volume of the drums down more than usual, and add more reverb to create a more distant sound.
G
Track Rat
Just Your Average Sized Member
I agree with Massive on this. I've been tracking lately in a very large room as opposed to my VERY small drum room. I placed a SM57 about 30' away from the drum kit pointed AWAY from the drums. I bring up the tight mics on the drums and they sound typical of drums I've tracked at my home studio in a small room. I then bring up that SM57 room mic along with the tight mics and HOLY SHIT. What a difference. It sounds like no reverb in a box that I own. REAL distance is the answer IMHO.
Massive Master
www.massivemastering.com
That was in there somewhere -- That's why studios put huge amounts of $$$ into the design of the room - plus the cost of construction, of course. If you have a sucky room, the only way around it is to use a non-sucky room.
Then you don't. I'm not going to compete in MotoGP because my bike (as wonderful of a bike as it is) isn't the right kind of bike for that competition. There are realistic limitations...somewhere from the future said:
T
tmix
Well-known member
If you are using samples or have recorded close miked in a sucky room, about the best you can do is work with EQ and some time based effects.
Too many people don't think through their choices of tone and make everything as bright and aggressive as possible not thinking about what those auditory queues are telling your ears.
Drums from a distance will NOT be as bright or as panned as they would be sitting 2 feet in front of them.
Think about the distance you want to simulate in you sound stage and try to emulate what the instrument would ACTUALLY sound from that distance.
Too many people don't think through their choices of tone and make everything as bright and aggressive as possible not thinking about what those auditory queues are telling your ears.
Drums from a distance will NOT be as bright or as panned as they would be sitting 2 feet in front of them.
Think about the distance you want to simulate in you sound stage and try to emulate what the instrument would ACTUALLY sound from that distance.
Beat Poet
New member
You barely want to use the close mics for sure and only use them to reinforce the room sound. One thing worth investigating is how they recorded drums back in the 60s, there are some fantastic roomy sounds to be found.
C
chavernac
New member
This is an excellent question.
I an going to give an excellent answer
2 very important things will have an impact on the perception of depth: transients, and ambiance.
Try to patch a limiter on your drum mix buss. Just enough so that it will kill the transients (most likely kick and snare). The will feel kinda "tucked in". don t abuse it!
Also, try to put some reverbs or early reflections on it. And I am NOT talking about plate reverbs on the snares which go "splaaaaaaaaaaaaaa". I am talking about very short ambiances.
This will most definitely push them pack
I an going to give an excellent answer
2 very important things will have an impact on the perception of depth: transients, and ambiance.
Try to patch a limiter on your drum mix buss. Just enough so that it will kill the transients (most likely kick and snare). The will feel kinda "tucked in". don t abuse it!
Also, try to put some reverbs or early reflections on it. And I am NOT talking about plate reverbs on the snares which go "splaaaaaaaaaaaaaa". I am talking about very short ambiances.
This will most definitely push them pack
nzausrec
Member
Thanks everyone. I brought down close mics, favouring room and overheads, and it is already better. I panned the close mics a little to the side so they appear as they would in the rehearsal room. There is lots of verb on the room mic.
I got away from centering the kick and it is better in my ears for it.
I got away from centering the kick and it is better in my ears for it.
MG Eddie
New member
wouldn't it be easiest to just turn the drum faders down? I mean when I hear drums at the back of the mix they are usually quieter and not balls out in your face. I agree with greg on this one, and everyone is giving complicated answers to a simple question.
G
Greg_L
Banned
T
Terra
Scholarly Gentleman
try an Impulse Response plug-in, they resemble real acoustic spaces. Waves makes some sick ones.
C
chavernac
New member
Lower the fader is just not going to work. You can have a sound super soft AND in your face. It is all about perception, transients and ambience/direct sound ratio.
If someone whispers in your ears... well it feels really close... And if someone shouts from the back of the room... well it feels pretty far. and STILL those 2 signals have the same level.
If someone whispers in your ears... well it feels really close... And if someone shouts from the back of the room... well it feels pretty far. and STILL those 2 signals have the same level.
G
Greg_L
Banned
Okay so lower the faders and hang some reverb on it. Rocket science!
Farview
Well-known member
In general, things that are brighter and dryer (less room or reverb) end up sounding in your face at the front of the mix.
Things that are duller and wetter (more room or reverb) end up sounding farther away.
So, if you want to make the drums sound farther away, soften the attack, mellow the cymbals, don't scoop the mids, and add a decent amount of reverb.
Things that are duller and wetter (more room or reverb) end up sounding farther away.
So, if you want to make the drums sound farther away, soften the attack, mellow the cymbals, don't scoop the mids, and add a decent amount of reverb.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
But don't you hate adding reverb?
The answers are not really THAT complicated....miking stuff up-close makes things sound up-close and up-front in the mix...even if you pull back the faders, the level drops, but the sound is still up-close/up-front.
I always preferred the drums a little back in the mix, so most of my drum sounds come from an overhead M/S pair, and then I just spot-mic the snare and kick.
I've been making some adjustments to the sound, by pushing just the snare and kick up in the mix with various combinations of position/level/EQ/compression, while still letting the kit sound somewhat "behind" the other instruments, where I think it should be for most situations...rather then the drum kit always being up-front and the center of attention, with the rest of the instruments sitting "behind" it.
But....everyone has their favorite "sound"...
...and it also depends on the music style.
G
Greg_L
Banned
But don't you hate adding reverb?
.
Yup, very much, which is why you'll never hear my drums buried in the back of a mix like it's 1955.