Who can Quantize my upcoming album? (Paid, or free :P)

[benage]

I don't play drums myself and use midi tracks, and if creating a real kit sound for a rock/pop song, I'd always move the notes off the grid slightly to give it a human feel, which I felt it did, and helped my kit sound more convincing.

The consensus a few years ago seemed to be this was desirable, and a quantised drum track in this circumstance was boring to listen to, and would sound fake.

Do people not desire a human feel to their drums now then?

 

[NL5]

The consensus a few years ago seemed to be this was desirable, and a quantised drum track in this circumstance was boring to listen to, and would sound fake.

Do people not desire a human feel to their drums now then?

You're comparing apples to Oranges. Fake drums sound fake because they are fake. Real drums, played by a real drummer, sound real - even when quantizied.

As Farview said, it didn't used to be so critical, but in the metal genre especially, everything is so perfect, that if it's not, you're already a step behind the competition.

 

[miroslav]

What sounds fake with sequenced MIDI tracks is usually the sampled beats repeating over and over....not the perfect timming....IMO.


Personally...I can't take sloppy playing that's sometimes disguised as "human feel".
If everyone *could* play perfectly...they would.
It's about hitting the beat where the beat is...not a few milliseconds before the beat or after the beat, but ON the beat.
That's not the same as an entire band slowing down/speeding up for effect on some sections of a song..etc....that's a different thing.
And yeah...there are those situations where you play ever so slightly ahead or behind the beat...but you would do that consistently for every beat. No one plays consistently for every beat...but you can get close enough where it my not always be audible....but boy do I hate when there's those random, occasional early/late snare hits or guitar strums.
That's not groove.

It's most noticeable when you multi-track overdubs. No matter how tight of a player you are...when you RW and record track by track...you will NEVER play each track with the exact timing as any other track.

In a live setting, you go with the flow, the whole band is playing, at best you find as tight a groove as you can and you roll with it hopefully through the whole song. In the studio with multi-tracked overdubs you edit where you need to.
Ain't no shame in it....not sure why everyone gets all worked about it. You can practice 'till your fingers bleed...and still, play the same part several times, on several tracks...and there will be timing differences between the tracks.

YMMV.....

 

[Farview]

I don't play drums myself and use midi tracks, and if creating a real kit sound for a rock/pop song, I'd always move the notes off the grid slightly to give it a human feel, which I felt it did, and helped my kit sound more convincing.

The consensus a few years ago seemed to be this was desirable, and a quantised drum track in this circumstance was boring to listen to, and would sound fake.

The problem with doing that is the fact that 'feel' is not simply randomness and/or non perfect timing. Feel is usually the consistent slight timing differences between two or more instruments. (that includes the timing differences between the hat, snare,kick, etc...) There is really nothing random about it, and when done well is very consistent.

Do people not desire a human feel to their drums now then?

Which people are we talking about? The average listener doesn't know the difference and simply doesn't get their underwear in a bunch about the method anyone uses to make the noise coming out of their iPod. It's only elitist musicians that try to pump up their own ego by saying that they don't need to do this and that.

It's all stupid posturing.

 

[benage]

Ok cool thanks, yeah I'm not sure it's adding anything 'musically' to have it not bang in the beat, like you said a real drummer would hit it all perfectly if he could - but no one can, so it does make it sound more 'real', but not really better.

I also find careful use of reverb can really sell a fake kit, and as you said, using a few different samples/velocities throughout also.

 

[miroslav]

As I mentioned...there are ways of "working the beat".
Like when you strum a chord...you can have the first string be on the beat, or the last string be on the beat...or something in between
That's the "groove" you choose to set...and everything is still *on the beat* overall throughout the whole song.

But when you play...there's no way will nail that groove note for note, beat for beat...and having to repeat it for 10-15 tracks as you record your overdubs makes it even harder.
You end up with things being close...but not the same *consistently*, and from track to track...so you edit if needed to get the groove you want.

It's a lot easier with a full band. You are always listening to the other guys and watching them for visual cues, and that helps keep everyone in the same groove a lot better.
That said...you still need practice to be able to find your grooves...no one is saying that you should play *sloppy* and then just edit/quantize to make it all perfect.

 

[benage]

The problem with doing that is the fact that 'feel' is not simply randomness and/or non perfect timing. Feel is usually the consistent slight timing differences between two or more instruments. (that includes the timing differences between the hat, snare,kick, etc...) There is really nothing random about it, and when done well is very consistent.

Which people are we talking about? The average listener doesn't know the difference and simply doesn't get their underwear in a bunch about the method anyone uses to make the noise coming out of their iPod. It's only elitist musicians that try to pump up their own ego by saying that they don't need to do this and that.

It's all stupid posturing.

I hear what your saying, Sometimes though I don't want any feel in the way you describe - like a groove or swing, but just an imperfect beat. As Miro said even when someone has a groove going on, there is an inconsistency in that groove which I believe is random.

 

[RAMI]

The thing that most non-drummers don't get about the whole "human feel" thing is that it's not about playing "off" timing-wise. Like Miroslav said "If everyone could naturally play perfect timing-wise, they would."
If you want "human" sounding drums, it's more about the velocities than it is about randomizing the timing. A real drummer puts accents on his high-hats when playing a beat, for example. You can perfectly program a beat and quantize it perfectly, and it can still sound very natural IF you vary the velocity of your hits. Listen to a lot of beats and try to pick out if the drummer is putting accents on the "1,2,3,4", or on the "&" of every beat, etc....
Same with rolls. The reason a lot of MIDI tracks have "machine-gun" sounding rolls is because of the lack of accents, as opposed to the timing of them. You can do a roll with perfectly quantized 16th notes and still sound "human" if you accent the right hits.

 

[benage]

The thing that most non-drummers don't get about the whole "human feel" thing is that it's not about playing "off" timing-wise. Like Miroslav said "If everyone could naturally play perfect timing-wise, they would."
If you want "human" sounding drums, it's more about the velocities than it is about randomizing the timing. A real drummer puts accents on his high-hats when playing a beat, for example. You can perfectly program a beat and quantize it perfectly, and it can still sound very natural IF you vary the velocity of your hits. Listen to a lot of beats and try to pick out if the drummer is putting accents on the "1,2,3,4", or on the "&" of every beat, etc....
Same with rolls. The reason a lot of MIDI tracks have "machine-gun" sounding rolls is because of the lack of accents, as opposed to the timing of them. You can do a roll with perfectly quantized 16th notes and still sound "human" if you accent the right hits.

Yeah, I have experimented with that, like accenting the first hit of every four 1/16ths on a roll, or getting louder towards the end e.t.c which worked well. I Also tried to work out with bass drum hits on a breakbeat, if some hits would be louder or softer - especially if the're were two quick successive beats (Can't remember the outcome, it was a while ago).

 

[miroslav]

The thing that most non-drummers don't get about the whole "human feel" thing is that it's not about playing "off" timing-wise. Like Miroslav said "If everyone could naturally play perfect timing-wise, they would."
If you want "human" sounding drums, it's more about the velocities than it is about randomizing the timing. A real drummer puts accents on his high-hats when playing a beat, for example. You can perfectly program a beat and quantize it perfectly, and it can still sound very natural IF you vary the velocity of your hits. Listen to a lot of beats and try to pick out if the drummer is putting accents on the "1,2,3,4", or on the "&" of every beat, etc....
Same with rolls. The reason a lot of MIDI tracks have "machine-gun" sounding rolls is because of the lack of accents, as opposed to the timing of them. You can do a roll with perfectly quantized 16th notes and still sound "human" if you accent the right hits.

Yes...exactly.
That's what I was getting at when I said what sounds fake with sequenced/MIDI drums is the sampled beats repeating over and over...not the perfect timing when you quantize.
RAMI said it better...a real drummer doesn't hit the same drum the same way every time....the velocity is always a shade different.

Now...you CAN spend time adjusting velocities with sampled drums, and for some types of music you can almost fool anyone...but with some music, it's just not easy to do that. The sampled stuff just stick out.
I also think that on a very high pro level, they WILL spend the extra time (and they also have the people) to do that tedious editing with sampled drums, and tweak them to perfection...but most home rec guys are eager to get on with the recording/mixing, so at best, they do a little tweaking to the samples and then just go with it, so very often you can hear that their drums are not being played , but rather they are sampled/sequenced.

 

[witzendoz]

I disagree 100%. For quantizing to work effectively, you have to be able to play pretty tightly to a click. At the speeds drummers are playing, it really does make the playing sound noticeably better. If you are trying to cover up for poor performance, quantizing will be a real PITA, and it still won't sound that great.

Again, find me one modern metal album that isn't quantized. There probably is one, but I Haven't heard/seen one.

This is the exact reason I don't listen to this style of music anymore.

Most people that poo-poo quantizing can't play to a click in the first place.....

I actually play to a click track very well, I know I am not a drummer I am a bass player but I have been playing to click tracks or drum loops since the mid 1980's I toured in an electronic dance music band that had no drummer only loops (not quantised but programmed to human feel) and everyone in the band including a live percussion player played to click tracks.


I also record loads of drummers that play extremely well to click tracks, we never fix timing issues if there is a timing problem we re-record.

If the drummers are playing at speeds that they can't play at ????? well what can you say to that ??? if the drummers not up to playing the style of music get one that can. How the hell are they going to play a live show?

Alan.

 

[miroslav]

...we never fix timing issues if there is a timing problem we re-record.

That's certainly a way to get it done, Alan.

I don't like to do more than three passes on the drums...just don't have the time, and neither does the drummer, and we're usually tracking a few songs at one session.
From the three passes I'll comp the best sections, and if something needs to be nudged...well, it's just a lot easier.

 

[TheComposer]

That's certainly a way to get it done, Alan.

I don't like to do more than three passes on the drums...just don't have the time, and neither does the drummer, and we're usually tracking a few songs at one session.
From the three passes I'll comp the best sections, and if something needs to be nudged...well, it's just a lot easier.

This, exactly this.

 

[witzendoz]

This, exactly this.

Yes, but comping a few takes and then nudging a couple of mistakes is a lot different then quantising a whole recording. I am not against fixing a mistake or 2 but quantising a whole recording because the drummer can't play is different.

Alan.

 

[miroslav]

...but quantising a whole recording because the drummer can't play is different.

I agree.

 

[NL5]

Yes, but comping a few takes and then nudging a couple of mistakes is a lot different then quantising a whole recording. I am not against fixing a mistake or 2 but quantising a whole recording because the drummer can't play is different.

Alan.

I never quantize a drummer that can't play. It would be nearly impossible for me to do, and not worth the time it would take.

As far as not liking the fact that everything has to be quantized in the metal genre (or heck, most music today), I agree with you. It's a sad state of affairs, but quite frankly, if you don't, you are already starting in a hole. Same goes for the loudness wars. It sucks, but the average listener will think the louder track sounds better. I've been listening to some old CD's lately, and it really is amazing how much punch there was in the drums compared to today. You have to turn the volume up, but at equal level, they sound SOOOOOO much better.

 

[Guitargodgt]

I'm not sure if your joking ( there was no smiley!)

No I was not joking.

You can grid align anything. Including guitars (just need a DI track to make it easier).

Actually I'm confident I could take a drum track that was not tracked to a click and fix it as well (as long as no instruments were tracked to said shitty ass drums)...

But that's not cheap, and is incredibly time consuming so recording to a click track and just fixing a few sections is the way to go. Fixing 16th note double kick drums is another incredibly time consuming task that I don't think OP is gonna get for cheap.

 

[Guitargodgt]

Personally...I can't take sloppy playing that's sometimes disguised as "human feel".
If everyone *could* play perfectly...they would.

Ahahaha so fucking true.

 

[benage]

No I was not joking.

Ok cool, I hadn't really heard of people quantising vocals before, and a few things about his post I mentioned earlier just threw me a bit, no probs.

 

[miroslav]

I don't *quantize* vocals...but I've nudged words to adjust the feel of the phrasing. When I do 3 passes of vocals, the phrasing isn't always 100% identical per take...so as I comp, I'll pick what I like best, or nudge a little.

You have to be REAL careful with vocals.
While things like drums and other rhythm tracks favor being right on the beats...vocals and leads usually tend to dance all over them and HOW they "dance" is key. Push all the vocals right ON the beat...and they could sound weird.