Limiter on the master channel?

[arcadeko]

I have been experimenting with a limiter on the drum track and I don't like it.

I tried removing that limiter and just added a limiter to the master channel (Cubase 4LE)

It seems to fix my clipping issues and I think it sounds pretty good

any advice on the pros and cons of this? Is this a good idea or a bad idea?

 

[Massive Master]

Any particular reason why you're mixing so hot in the first place...? You'd be far better off just mixing at "more typical" levels... You can always squash it later -- You only get the one chance to not permanently damage it...

 

[Chili]

Yeah, what Massive said... you shouldn't be clipping with or without a limiter on the master bus. Lower all the tracks so you're not clipping. In fact, lower them significantly. Personally, I never put anything on the master bus. Don't know if that's right or wrong, but I find no need for it.

 

[Greg_L]

They're called "faders". Use them. And then maybe don't track so hot.

 

[mixsit]

Yeah, what Massive said... you shouldn't be clipping with or without a limiter on the master bus. Lower all the tracks so you're not clipping. In fact, lower them significantly. Personally, I never put anything on the master bus. Don't know if that's right or wrong, but I find no need for it.

There's proper gain staging and all, but doesn't it need to be asked what you're going for with this? Style of music for one, and if this is going to be the finished version of the track?

 

[arcadeko]

The problem I am having is mostly on the drum track. There is too much dynamic range so when the drums are really getting pounded they are clipping, if I bring the track down then the softer drum parts are disappearing in the mix - when I limit only the drums I can keep them at a decent level but then I get clipping on the master channel when other instruments and vocals (none of which are clipping in the individual channels) all come together.

The music is basically just alt/punk/rock - I'm using a Roland TD4 Electronic drums on the studio kit, then its just a mic and a guitar (I go in and add bass tracks and additional guitar tracks).

I guess this is headroom? the range of average signal volume to peak? It just seems too wide and the bulk of the song is too low when I reduce all channels down to avoid clipping.

Is there an appropriate target range for songs that really don't alter much in volume - I'm not playing Pixies music its all basically the same level - distortion guitars and drums...

 

[miroslav]

when I limit only the drums I can keep them at a decent level but then I get clipping on the master channel when other instruments and vocals (none of which are clipping in the individual channels) all come together.

Like others have said...lower the individual tracks so that when they come together they are not clipping.
It's all there is to it...

What's the point of raising their levels so high...that you then have to compress everything back down real hard to keep it from clipping?
Use mild compression on individual tracks if needed...but also lower the track's overall volume so that when you sum all of them, it's not clipping.

 

[RAMI]

The problem I am having is mostly on the drum track. There is too much dynamic range so when the drums are really getting pounded they are clipping, if I bring the track down then the softer drum parts are disappearing in the mix - when I limit only the drums I can keep them at a decent level but then I get clipping on the master channel when other instruments and vocals (none of which are clipping in the individual channels) all come together.

The music is basically just alt/punk/rock - I'm using a Roland TD4 Electronic drums on the studio kit, then its just a mic and a guitar (I go in and add bass tracks and additional guitar tracks).

I guess this is headroom? the range of average signal volume to peak? It just seems too wide and the bulk of the song is too low when I reduce all channels down to avoid clipping.

Is there an appropriate target range for songs that really don't alter much in volume - I'm not playing Pixies music its all basically the same level - distortion guitars and drums...

Sorry, this makes no sense. Like almost everyone has said, turn EVERYTHING down and get a good mix without clipping. It's as simple as that.

 

[aaronmcoleman]

Sorry, this makes no sense. Like almost everyone has said, turn EVERYTHING down and get a good mix without clipping. It's as simple as that.

yes do this and be happy. highlight all the tracks and pull the fader one one down (this should pull everything down equally). Do this until it doesn't clip.

If most of the song is too quiet you're going to have to compress the offending tracks to keep them from pushing the entire song too high. Or rearrange the thing to get an average volume. Whatever, you've got some dynamics problems that need to be worked on with compression, arrangement or both.

 

[RAMI]

Mixing and mastering (even if it's pseudo-mastering like most of us here do) are 2 different parts of the process. Getting a good mix should be the only goal of....MIXING. That's not the time to worry about volume. Your peaks shouldn't be anywhere near 0db.

Getting the volume up is part of the mastering process. That's when limiters, compressors, etc...should be used to push your mix closer to "commercial" levels.

 

[arcadeko]

Mixing and mastering (even if it's pseudo-mastering like most of us here do) are 2 different parts of the process. ....Getting the volume up is part of the mastering process. That's when limiters, compressors, etc...should be used to push your mix closer to "commercial" levels.

I think thats my problem I was trying to Master in the mix.

Thanks for the help everyone - I appreciate it.

 

[aaronmcoleman]

it happens. when i mix i'll throw a limiter on the master track to push the volume, just to compare it to other tracks, then i'll get it off and save the real limiting for the pseudo mastering phase.

 

[sjjohnston]

I'll be a lone voice here saying that putting a limiter (or compressor) on the master bus isn't a particularly strange thing to do.

As for advice on the pros and cons of putting a limiter there vs. on the drum tracks in your particular situation (i.e. with the tracks you have, and trying for the sound you're trying for), I think this tells you the answer:
"It seems to fix my clipping issues and I think it sounds pretty good."

I would suggest that you do further experimentation, using a compressor as opposed to a limiter (or, to put it another way: a lower ratio and probably also a lower threshold), on both the drum tracks and the mix bus.

 

[RAMI]

Right. Let's put the emphasis where it belongs, shall we.

"It seems to fix my clipping issues and I think it sounds pretty good."

I'm pretty sure the smart thing to do is to not have clipping in the first place. Why insist on "fixing" a problem that serves no good purpose and shouldn't be there in the first place?