Hey Mutt - Pro Question

  • Thread starter Thread starter Sky Blue Lou
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Sky Blue Lou

Sky Blue Lou

Well-known member
Dear Muttley,

Does headstock angle (or bridge to tailpiece) make any difference to string tension? Will lesser angles reduce the tension in the strings?

There is an argument on a vintage site over the merits of 14 degree vs. 17 degree headstock angles and it would seem to me that when the strings are tuned to pitch it won't make fuck-all difference to "tension". Am I missing something here?

The same argument has been used for top-wrapping Les Pauls. I do it to reduce breakage at the bridge but it doesn't feel more "bendy" to me. How could it and still be A=440?

Yr fthfl srvnt,

Dumbfounded in NH
 
Wish14 said:
Tension? I would doubt it.
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Seems counter-intuitive don't it? Most of the collector types on the vintage boards are wankers in my opinion anyway. Not all. I don't want to just jump on 'em unarmed though. Maybe they're right?


lou
 
It makes absolutely zero difference to the tension in the string. It make a small but indescribable difference to the downward pressure exerted by the string. All the talk of over wrapping strings is hogwash. There are threads on it here that I've gone into detail about just that in the past. Perhaps the only significant example of the break angle on a guitar is when applied to the floating bridge on an archtop that relies on energy transfer to drive the soundboard.
 
Thank you, sir. As I suspected. I still top wrap my LPs though...


lou
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
Thank you, sir. As I suspected. I still top wrap my LPs though...


lou
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You mean you insert the strings into the neck side of the tailpiece, wrap them over the top of the tailpiece, and the over the tuneomatic saddles?

What's the perceived benefit? I load my strings from the rear of the tailpiece.
 
Zaphod B said:
You mean you insert the strings into the neck side of the tailpiece, wrap them over the top of the tailpiece, and the over the tuneomatic saddles?

What's the perceived benefit?
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Less string breakage at the bridge.


lou
 
^^^^^^^

My observation is that a guitar with less headstock angle / less string break at the nut, and / or more string length above the nut and aft of the bridge saddles requires more deflection to acheive an upward note bend. I've always felt that this is because when you deflect a string, you are also stretching it on either side of the nut and saddles, and so these lengths come into play when you are bending. So I don't have any argument with the article to which you linked, Lou.
 
I don't know as I buy all that at all. That links says - regarding tension and pitch - that the length between nut and bridge is what counts. There is a bit further down about "looseness" which is what I think these guys are confusing with tension. But having said that I don't get that bit - or what Zaphod is saying right here. That is the other argument for top-wrapping - that it makes bending easier because of the reduced break angle. I never felt a difference.


lou
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
This was posted refuting the argument that these guys are talking voodoo:

Noyce Guitars: Technotes: String Tension


I don't know.

:confused:
lou
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The physics and math in that article are spot on. Some of the resulting assumptions are not. The way a longer physical string relates to increase in tension for one and the use of the term work hardening for another. It never ceases to amaze me that people with an evidently good knowledge of the basics can then get the detail wrong..
 
There are so many variables involved that I'm not sure I know what accounts for what I'm observing.
 
Sky Blue Lou said:
I don't know as I buy all that at all. That links says - regarding tension and pitch - that the length between nut and bridge is what counts. There is a bit further down about "looseness" which is what I think these guys are confusing with tension. But having said that I don't get that bit - or what Zaphod is saying right here. That is the other argument for top-wrapping - that it makes bending easier because of the reduced break angle. I never felt a difference.


lou
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If a guitar is setup correctly there isn't a difference. The difference in feel is down to the ratio of a combination of two things. To alter the pitch during a bend you can do one of two things, alter the string length or increase the tension. In practice we do both. The argument he puts forward is that if there is more sting behind the fixed point then some of that string can pass over the nut or bridge to move more easily when bending it. Unfortunately you gain little in increased tension when that happens. You only get the increase in string length. In truth in most case you get the product of both the string length and the tension and you need both to get a pitch shift of any significance.
 
Zaphod B said:
There are so many variables involved that I'm not sure I know what accounts for what I'm observing.
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There are actually very few important variable. Tension and string length being the significant ones here. Think of it this way. If you steal string length from behind the nut or bridge you need to further increase the tension on the vibrating string consequently you have to push it further to bend the note. As I said though normally it is a combination of the two. The friction at the fixed points on a well set up guitar is not really important and nor is the very slight increase in downward pressure on an angled headstock. People will always swear they can feel a difference though even if you can prove there isn't one by physically measuring it.
 
OK, let me ask this.

Two guitars, all other things being equal mechanically, but one has a string behind the nut that is 1/2" from nut to tuner, and the other has 12" from nut to tuner. Would the amount that you would have to bend the vibrating portion to attain a given frequency shift upwards be the same for both?
 
Thanks, Mutt. I get it. The vintage guys will never buy it but voodoo makes their collections worth more.


lou
 
Zaphod B said:
OK, let me ask this.

Two guitars, all other things being equal mechanically, but one has a string behind the nut that is 1/2" from nut to tuner, and the other has 12" from nut to tuner. Would the amount that you would have to bend the vibrating portion to attain a given frequency shift upwards be the same for both?
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Pretty much yes or at least as close as makes no difference... You may or may not feel some extra tension on the shorter string but if you listen closely we don't actually bend the notes as far as we imagine them in terms of pitch. It's a feel thing in more ways than one.
 
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