Milnoque
Resident Curmudgeon
Sometimes.
Sometimes.
Manslick
Road
Is songwriting overrated? I’d have to say no, because songwriters get royalties long after the musicians, arrangers, engineers etc are long gone and forgotten.
Of course there are those people who obsess about trivial facts like who arranged Moon River.
Most people remember it was Johnny Mercer who sang the song and of those I’d bet only a few know he co-wrote it.
I don’t know who arranged it, probably Henry Mancini, for the movie Breakfast at Tiffany's. Maybe you remember Audrey Hepburn singing it in that movie.
So in this movie you get a “scratch track” (Hepburn) and a musical arrangement over the opening credits.
To say “It's another thing altogether to fashion that song into a recording that endures” is kind of odd when you can’t have a recording without a song. Can you? Don’t answer that.
A good song, I guess, will endure regardless of the fashioning. People still listen to Robert Johnson’s, original Crossroads.
Browsing thru the posts here I see references to Dyaln, Phish, Queen, Beatles, Beach Boys, John Cage, Syd Barrett, Lou Reed, John Lennon but not a single reference to a song from the MP3 Clinic.
Of course there are those people who obsess about trivial facts like who arranged Moon River.
Most people remember it was Johnny Mercer who sang the song and of those I’d bet only a few know he co-wrote it.
I don’t know who arranged it, probably Henry Mancini, for the movie Breakfast at Tiffany's. Maybe you remember Audrey Hepburn singing it in that movie.
So in this movie you get a “scratch track” (Hepburn) and a musical arrangement over the opening credits.
To say “It's another thing altogether to fashion that song into a recording that endures” is kind of odd when you can’t have a recording without a song. Can you? Don’t answer that.
A good song, I guess, will endure regardless of the fashioning. People still listen to Robert Johnson’s, original Crossroads.
Browsing thru the posts here I see references to Dyaln, Phish, Queen, Beatles, Beach Boys, John Cage, Syd Barrett, Lou Reed, John Lennon but not a single reference to a song from the MP3 Clinic.
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Greg_L
Banned
So what does that mean? Anyone who hasn't written a "hit" has an invalid opinion? If so, that's stupid. I don't play professional football, but I know the game.
It takes the general listening public to make a song a hit. To many people, that makes a song great. To me, the general listening public is fucking stupid, so hit songs must suck. Therefore, the unknown, hit-less people in the clinic must be the good ones.
Manslick
Road
I'm a trouble maker.
A
AbuseTheMuses
New member
After spending years twiddling around for the 'perfect' sound for high-effectsy huitar layers and musical soundscapes and writing all the catchy riffs for other people's songs, which they considered their own music, I have to say I became quite resentful of many of the songwriters I worked with. They come with a guitar chord sequence and some lyrics, they leave with a full arrangement with its own texture, hooks, countermelodies, dynamic fluctuations that made it really good to listen to. What did I get? stuffed in the background of the supposed visionary who gets all the credit for his 3-chords-and-some-notebook-paper approach.
So I wrote my own songs to my own music instead, and haven't been the bitter overworked sidekick ever since.
At first I didn't care what I was writing about, I just needed some lyrics for that layer in the mix. Then I remembered how many songs suck donkey balls, and actually decided to write my lyrics as something that I actually like to think or talk or question about. Subject matter makes a difference in delivery and I remember feeling disgusted by a lot of the late 90s alternative music on the radio, in how little attention was paid to that. I mean, come on now... that "Closing Time" song that uses the same 3-4 chord sequence as half the pop songs out there, has lyrics about going to a club and ends up with a huge wall-of-guitar blasts over the repeating line "I know who I want to take me home" . Yeah real heart-felt you guys. Good job making a mockery of 'alternative' song pop format for some quick drunken jukebox request plays at the end of the night at a club.
So yeah, without the song, all you have is talent gone to waste. Great talent can make a bad song catchy or impressive, but a great song can get away with the scratchiest most out of tune performance still powerful. I am thinking here of the difference between listening to Bob Dylan versus listening to Lady Gaga's production staff, or any of Yngwie's guitar playing and attempts at writing lyrics.
So I wrote my own songs to my own music instead, and haven't been the bitter overworked sidekick ever since.
At first I didn't care what I was writing about, I just needed some lyrics for that layer in the mix. Then I remembered how many songs suck donkey balls, and actually decided to write my lyrics as something that I actually like to think or talk or question about. Subject matter makes a difference in delivery and I remember feeling disgusted by a lot of the late 90s alternative music on the radio, in how little attention was paid to that. I mean, come on now... that "Closing Time" song that uses the same 3-4 chord sequence as half the pop songs out there, has lyrics about going to a club and ends up with a huge wall-of-guitar blasts over the repeating line "I know who I want to take me home" . Yeah real heart-felt you guys. Good job making a mockery of 'alternative' song pop format for some quick drunken jukebox request plays at the end of the night at a club.
So yeah, without the song, all you have is talent gone to waste. Great talent can make a bad song catchy or impressive, but a great song can get away with the scratchiest most out of tune performance still powerful. I am thinking here of the difference between listening to Bob Dylan versus listening to Lady Gaga's production staff, or any of Yngwie's guitar playing and attempts at writing lyrics.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
If you’re the guy doing both the writing and arranging...it doesn't matter.
I can understand if someone scribbles out a basic "song" and then you spend time actually making it workable/listenable, and you get kinda' stiffed and the writer gets all the credit, but I think these days a lot of songwriters are also the arrangers, producers, engineers...etc...in their personal studios.
I've always worked that way, doing it all myself...so for me songwriting is the entire process, and I am well aware how vague some of my initial song scribbling was and how much the arrangement and production went toward turning it into a *song*.
Of course...we must keep in mind that without those initial scribbles...the rest of the stuff that follows would never happen, so yeah, very often the essence of the song is locked in at the earliest stages, and all that follows is merely the act of flushing it out and turning it into a polished performance/product.
Then there are guys who really have nothing that resembles a *song*...maybe just some beats or maybe just a catchy bass line or maybe just one verse or chorus...and they don't know where to go or how to finish it, polish it up.
For that, if another person comes in and arranges and produces it into a real/finished song, they need to work out the ownership right up front, because they in fact HAVE contributed to creating "the song".
It's often a fine line, and bands have broken up over those disputes...like when one guy adds a single word or phrase to the lyrics and then feels he should be a 50/50 co-writer.
true-eurt
Maneater
First it takes the puppeteers of *what-where-when is in*, to tell the general listening public puppets what makes a song a hit..cause you know damn well the general listening public can't even choose what toilet paper to buy without a guide.
I'm not a great musician, singer, writer or recordist..but..I know what I like. Just because 99% of the people at work insist Country Western is the best, I stand my ground with ROCK N ROLL! It is a long wait for my turn at the radio, though almost worth the wait to watch them cringe when Disturbed plays.
And in reply to Manslick...I've heard quite a few songs over the past 5yrs in the MP3 clinic that are comparable or better than much of the crap on the radio.
Just because one doesn't become a mega star, DOES NOT mean they DON'T have talent..it only means they aren't famous for it... Nor does being a mega star mean you DO have talent...only that you made all the right connections.
It's basically, a matter of what one really wants from their music..who you know and what you are willing to do to get it..and even then, there are no guarantees to produce a long standing success. Look at all the one hit wonders.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yes...valid points...but I'm sure we would also agree that there have been a lot of "hits" that many of us here have truly liked, across all genres (not just typical Pop)...
...so I’m sure none of us would say that we were simply puppets and that we had no sense of what was or wasn't a good tune.
...so I’m sure none of us would say that we were simply puppets and that we had no sense of what was or wasn't a good tune.
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Greg_L
Banned
...so I’m sure none of us would say that we were simply puppets and that we had no sense of what was or wasn't a good tune.
We're different. We write, play, and record our own music. I think that we have a better ear for music and know how to pick the music we like a little better than say, a 14 year old girl or our mothers. It's no shock that most musician types don't like the Jonas Brothers or Miley Cyrus, yet millions of teenage girls do. That's why fans, album sales, and/or chart success means absolutely nothing in regards to what makes a good song.
true-eurt
Maneater
Of course there's a lot of great music out there...I believe you knew what I was referring to.Yes...valid points...but I'm sure we would also agree that there have been a lot of "hits" that many of us here have truly liked, across all genres (not just typical Pop)...
...so I’m sure none of us would say that we were simply puppets and that we had no sense of what was or wasn't a good tune.
As I said, just because you have record sales, fans and all the hype, does not by any means make you a quality artist...just a popular one..but rich.
S
StevenJacksonMu
New member
Very valid points !
However my Mum (God bless her soul) liked a wide variety from Glenn Miller, Classical, The Beatles etc...and my Dad too, to a lesser extent.
I think this is where I got my musical appreciation from.
So I suppose my parents are exceptions but I do see your point.
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Yes...that is true...I'm just pointing out that there have been "hits" that we also liked right alongside those "puppets"...so not all mass-approved "hits" are necessarily always crap.
I think sometimes there is a negative, kneejerk reaction on music/audio forums when the talk turns to "hits" or anyone making lots of money off the music biz...etc...like that's always a bad thing, which I don't think is the case, but yeah, there's been a lot of "fluff" that's become hits thanks to the puppets and puppeteers.
That is to say…you can still write what you like, and if you pursue it hard enough, it could become a hit if you are lucky to get some breaks….or you can also be happy in your own way with it, hit or no hit.
Good music doesn't have become a hit...and there's tons of it out there.
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Greg_L
Banned
I think sometimes there is a negative, kneejerk reaction on music/audio forums when the talk turns to "hits" or anyone making lots of money off the music biz...etc...like that's always a bad thing, which I don't think is the case, but yeah, there's been a lot of "fluff" that's become hits thanks to the puppets and puppeteers.
.
In this day and age, the kneejerk reaction to a hit being shit is the right reaction. If we as a musical society are gonna keep using Grammys and Billboard charts as the definition of "hit", then yeah, hits suck now.
S
StevenJacksonMu
New member
I have to say I agree with you....with popular music as it stands in this day and age
I can't abide the Grammy's and the self-congratulatory bullshit that goes with it ! same goes with the meaningless Billboard charts.
T
tonesponge
New member
Proof that it's all about style.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyvLsutfI5M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zThdTAWQFAQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JyvLsutfI5M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zThdTAWQFAQ
Armistice
Son of Yoda
And you know this how? Whose music, of the posters here, have you listened to?
I wasn't aware that anyone here was claiming songwriting greatness - and knocking out a song that a lot of people will like and getting them to hear it are two completely different animals... and you're assuming that some of us even care about being heard. The art is in the creation, not the sale.
You should put that line in a song... I'm sure it'll be a hit. Perhaps you can get the Bieber dude to sing it for you...
miroslav
Cosmic Cowboy
Possibly...but I was talking about so-called "hits" over the last 60 years.
They weren't all shit just 'cuz they were a hit or 'cuz they made the charts.
Maybe standing here today and looking back at songs from 30-40-50 years ago, they might seem shit...but I think that's because by now we've kinda seen and heard it all, we've become jaded...
... but when some of that stuff was "fresh" and a totally new sound for its time, I don't think too many people thought it was shit, at the time.
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Greg_L
Banned
You can't compare the 50's and 60's or even the 70's, 80's, and 90's to today. Those eras still had new ground to explore. Hits from those days could be appreciated on two levels - they were fresh and new, and the artists actually performed the songs. Fast forward to the 2000's, and here we are with corporate manufactured supergroups and pop stars lip syncing and auto-tuning their way to the top of the charts. That or they're some dumbfuck rapper of the month. Seriously? Justin fucking Bieber? This is easily the lowest point ever for music in general. Disco wasn't even this bad. Even bands that are considered "rock" are weak and timid now.
S
StevenJacksonMu
New member
Agree 100% I couldn't have put it better !
R
RRuskin
Rick Ruskin
As compared to what - Breathing?